Joseph Bishop Interview Transcript

Original audio and PDF transcript can be obtained from MormonLeaks. This version was automatically generated from the PDF and may contain inaccuracies; if you spot any, please leave a comment.

Skip introductory dialog


Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 00:00:05]

Interviewer

Aw, that is so … Nice to meet you. Thank you. So, I have a few questions for you, not a whole lot, but I do have a few. Do you know any of the other … There’s a temple president that lives in Phoenix named — — He was temple president in — — . Okay, doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter. — — I have some questions for you. The first one is just some general information, where you grew up Do you know what the point of this is?

Joseph Bishop

I’d like to know.

Interviewer

There are some amazing church leaders who have done tremendous work. It’s kind of an unsung hero type of work. I think they go unrecognized. So, what I’d like to do is get an idea of some of the, like the presidents, obviously there are a million of those. Temple presidents, and I’ve got a few of those, but you served two mission presidencies, so [crosstalk 00:01:34]

Joseph Bishop

Three.

Interviewer

Oh, three!

Joseph Bishop

Well, one was acting president.

Interviewer

Okay. Perfect, we’ll get to that. So, for me, I thought you were like a two in one, but now you’re a three in one, which is even better.

Joseph Bishop

Let’s say two and a half.

Interviewer

Two and a half, two and a half, okay. So, Joseph L. Bishop, what’s your middle name?

Joseph Bishop

Layton. L-a-y-t-o-n.

Interviewer

Like Layton, Utah?

Joseph Bishop

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Interviewer

Did you grow up there?

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

Why Layton?

Joseph Bishop

My father was Joseph Layton. I’m Joseph Layton Jr.

Interviewer

Nice. How’d you get Bishop.

Joseph Bishop

Bishop.

Interviewer

Was your wife’s name, or your, no, excuse me, your father’s name [crosstalk 00:02:18]

Joseph Bishop

Joseph Layton Bishop.

Interviewer

Joseph Layton Bishop. You’re the second. Okay. I’m sorry. Alright.So, where did you grow up?

Joseph Bishop

Delta, Utah.

Interviewer

Where’s that?

Joseph Bishop

In the center of the state.

Interviewer

Delta, Utah. Okay.

Joseph Bishop

It used to be the hub of the universe until I grew up a little more.

Interviewer

(laughs) I bet. How many siblings do you have?

Joseph Bishop

None. I have a sister who passed away when I was two and she was four.

Interviewer

Sister died at four. Was she ill?

Joseph Bishop

Scarlet fever.

Interviewer

That’s awful. That must have been horrible.

Joseph Bishop

I was two, I don’t remember at all.

Interviewer

Yeah, but still. Gosh. Okay, and where did you go to school?

Joseph Bishop

Delta High School.

Interviewer

Delta High, okay.

Joseph Bishop

Branch Agricultural College in Cedar, which is now Southern Utah State University.

Interviewer

Okay. Now it’s Southern Utah, I’m sorry Southern what?

Joseph Bishop

Southern Utah State University.

Interviewer

University.

Joseph Bishop

You better check that.

Interviewer

Oh, I will. I’ll check everything. Alright, and where did you serve your mission?

Joseph Bishop

Argentina.

Interviewer

You served in Argentina? Then you were a mission president in Argentina. Nice.

Joseph Bishop

I served there as a young man in the Argentine mission, just [inaudible 00:03:42)

Interviewer

Argentine mission. How old were you? 19?

Joseph Bishop

No, I was 20, I think I was 21. Back then the Korean Conflict … You’re too young. There was a Korean conflict way back when and young men could not go on missions, they had to serve in the military first. Or, join the reserve and go to college. I chose that. That was three years into.

Interviewer

Into the conflict?

Joseph Bishop

Can we … Can I ask you a couple of questions?

Interviewer

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Joseph Bishop

I’ve had some amazing experiences, highly spiritual, that I don’t talk about all the time, for obvious reasons.

Interviewer

Yes sir.

Joseph Bishop

There is some things that I think might help struggling mission presidents. I’d be happy to go into all of that. I’ve had so many of those things, this might be a long interview, and you probably have to write about 15 people in your article, which isfine.

Interviewer

It’s okay though. I will take the most important parts. Perhaps your interview will be separate from others. Does that work?

Joseph Bishop

Don’t misunderstand. I just want to make sure that, as it’s written, it doesn’t come of sounding like, “I have these experiences and you haven’t .”

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

I want it to be clear that I know the hand of the Lord in my life, from way back when. My patriarchal blessing is very specific, numerous things that have all happened. I know that my life has been [crosstalk 00:05:48)

Interviewer

Have you thought about writing a book?

Joseph Bishop

I have written three books. Peace Be Unto Thy Soul.

Interviewer

Peace Be, do you mind if I write this down.

Joseph Bishop

No, no, no.

Interviewer

I’m so sorry. Peace Be Unto Thy Soul.

Joseph Bishop

My first book was The Making of a Missionary, which I wrote after my experience as president of Buenos Aires North Mission.

Interviewer

Okay. It was called what?

Joseph Bishop

The Making of a Missionary. Published by Bookcraft.

Interviewer

Do you know this is very good, I can’t believe..

Joseph Bishop

Which makes me appreciate you so much because you, obviously are a skilled writer or you wouldn’t have a job.

Interviewer

Right.

Joseph Bishop

My writing is just laborious.

Interviewer

That’s why we have editors.

Joseph Bishop

Is that right?

Interviewer

That’s exactly right!

Joseph Bishop

You’re an editor?

Interviewer

No, I’m not an editor, but I do write. So, that’s the second book. The third book?

Joseph Bishop

Thirty Ways To Enjoy, no, now I’ve forgotten my title.

Interviewer

Oh, come on!

Joseph Bishop

Thirty Ways To Love Your M ission.

Interviewer

To Love Your Mission.

Joseph Bishop

Covenant called and said, with the new young men going out, they wanted it a little bit lighter and so I wrote a new book that’s out there.

Interviewer

Nice. And that’s Covenant?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

And who did Peace Be Unto Thy Soul?

Joseph Bishop

I did. That was after my wife’s death.

Interviewer

Your wife died?

Joseph Bishop

Uh-huh (affirmative) My first wife .

Interviewer

Oh, when was that? I am so sorry to hear that.

Joseph Bishop

That was 12 years ago.

Interviewer

Oh my. But you’ve remarried?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

Okay. Self published. Wow, you’re self published? You didn’t self publish Peace Be Unto Thy Soul?

Joseph Bishop

No, that was Covenant.

Interviewer

That was Covenant.

Joseph Bishop

Two books with Covenant, and one from Bookcraft.

Interviewer

Bookcraft, okay. Was your wife ill?

Joseph Bishop

My wife was alive for the first book.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

The second book I wrote because of her death. It was an image book to try and help those who are grieving. Going through the process.

Interviewer

Wow, that’s impressive.

Joseph Bishop

You have to read the book, find out if it’s impressive.

Interviewer

Oh, I will read the book, I promise you. Wow. Okay, alright, so, who’s your wife now?

Joseph Bishop

I am divorced, but we’re getting remarried.

Interviewer

Okay, that’s a [crosstalk 00:08:22]

Joseph Bishop

She was the one I was gonna bring here.

Interviewer

Oh, I would have loved to have met her.

Joseph Bishop

She would have loved to have met you. I married her because I went to the temple with her Long story short, had an experience in the temple that I was to marry her. I knew she was struggling. She’s had all kinds of problems, wayward husband [crosstalk 00 08 43]

Interviewer

Like a cheating husband kind? I had one of those.

Joseph Bishop

Oh dear. [crosstalk 00:08:46]

Interviewer

They’re everywhere.

Joseph Bishop

Yes we are. So, there was a divorce. She divorced me about six months ago. She ended up here, she has a large family here. I ended up here, different reasons, and we’ve since gotten together and are planning to get married.

Interviewer

When are you getting married.

Joseph Bishop

We haven’t set a date yet. Within the next … I don’t want all that in there.

Interviewer

No, no, that’s okay. [crosstalk 00:09:17] What a wonderful story. So who was your first wife?

Joseph Bishop

Bishop, from Delta, Utah.

Interviewer

Really? Was she a childhood sweetheart?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

Was she your wife during the Buenos Aires North mission? — — —

Joseph Bishop

Yes. Yes.

Interviewer

Well then, she would have been at the MTC too?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

She only died 12 years ago.

Joseph Bishop

And she sang in the tabernacle choir for many, 20 years.

Interviewer

Wow, so you were in Salt Lake for a long time?

Joseph Bishop

In and out. Five missions.

Interviewer

So, okay, general information. You were married to — — What is your education

Joseph Bishop

We started on that didn’t we, when I interrupted you?

Interviewer

No, no. Wait. That’s why I have things written down. I normally have a lap top but…

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. Well, Associate’s of Arts degree at Southern Utah State University. Bachelor’s and Master’s degree at BYU

Interviewer

In?

Joseph Bishop

Spanish, majored in Spanish, minored in French.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

PhD at Claremont.

Interviewer

Where’s Claremont?

Joseph Bishop

Claremont. It’s in Claremont, California.

Interviewer

PhD in what?

Joseph Bishop

Education. It’s not an EdD, it’s a PhD.

Interviewer

Yeah. Doctor Bishop.

Joseph Bishop

I am he.

Interviewer

Hey, Dr. Bishop. That’s awesome. Good for you.

Joseph Bishop

Good for moi.

Interviewer

When did you finish your Doctorate?

Joseph Bishop

Oh, you’re gonna bring up the dates? Let me preface that as in, I’m now 85, soon to be 86. My memory is [crosstalk 00:11:13]

Interviewer

Not to worry, I’m sure it’s still with us.

Joseph Bishop

Let’s see. Probably, I ended up with my degree there probably around ‘75.

Interviewer

Still married to-

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

We were married almost 46 years.

Interviewer

Wow.

Joseph Bishop

Then she had the audacity to die.

Interviewer

She just kicked the bucket on you.

Joseph Bishop

Like that. She didn’t ask me.

Interviewer

Little bugger. She didn’t ask permission?

Joseph Bishop

Nothing.

Interviewer

What is wrong with that?

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know.

Interviewer

Bless your heart. What was your first calling in the church? You were never a Bishop Bishop were you? (laughs) Really? Can I write that down? Bishop Bishop?

Joseph Bishop

Of course.

Interviewer

Okay, Bishop Bishop. You know I think you might need a whole article just for yourself. This is so much more.

Joseph Bishop

Do you have a schedule at 4:00?

Interviewer

I don’t. I don’t.

Joseph Bishop

Do you want a little bit more background?

Interviewer

Yeah.

Joseph Bishop

When I was a young man, I had my Patriarchal Blessing when I was 16, 17. Patriarch in Delta, Utah who says “We was.”

Interviewer

Oh, right.

Joseph Bishop

One of the old, great men. My blessing said to me, I have [inaudible 00:12:35] said to me, “Study the gospel because you will be called to preach the gospel, not only in the Wasatch Front, but in the nations of the world.” — — Now, keep in mind, that time, later, I couldn’t go on a mission because they weren’t allowing men, young men, to go on missions.

Interviewer

Right. Because North Korea.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. So, I was in the AFROTC and wanted to be a fighter pilot. The process was, you went to school and signed a contract with the Army, with the Air Force.

Interviewer

With the Air Force.

Joseph Bishop

Then, after the three years of college, you went to a summer camp. I went to the Air Force base in Las Vegas, Nellis.

Interviewer

Nellis.

Joseph Bishop

Then, the following year, you finish your college, your university. You get a degree in whatever, and then you sign up for four, well, you’ve already signed up, for four more years in the Air Force. At that time, I was engaged to be married to another girl that I met in college.

Interviewer

But not

Joseph Bishop

But not

Interviewer

Bless your heart.

Joseph Bishop

She went to BYU. Well, she was two years younger than I. My mother had put in my … You’re gonna enjoy some of this because I enjoy it, and if I enjoy it, some [crosstalk 00:14:07]

Interviewer

I’m interested.

Joseph Bishop

My mother put into my suitcase the Book of Mormon and my Patriarchal Blessing. One evening I opened up the Book of Mormon, my Patriarchal Blessing — — fell out, that’s when I read that I was to go on a mission. That night in my prayers I said, “It’s okay I know I’m not going to be able to go on a mission.” Because of where I was. I was then three years in college so I was, what, 19, 20, 21 probably and engaged. Contract with the Air Force for another four years after I spent that year. By then, I’d probably have children. Obviously, not going to go on a mission. — — So I counseled the Lord, told him it was alright. About a week later, Eisenhower, who was then president, you may remember some of this?

Interviewer

I’m , so I don’t remember that. However, but, historically, I’m not too far off.

Joseph Bishop

So, he cut the budget of the Air Force and the cadets there at Nellis were all washed out because the cut in the budget.

Interviewer

Right. Were you a wash out?

Joseph Bishop

I was washed out.

Interviewer

Funny how that works, huh?

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. Then, a week later I got a letter from the army, for my induction notice. I was to go to Fort Ord in Salt Lake, and there go through medical examination and whatever. Then I would be in the army, in the infantry. Went up there. The young man that did the medical assessment was obviously just out of med school, trying to start a practice. They’d washed me out for a frivolous reason. I have a, I have a, what’s it called? It’s a little nub of a rib, an extra rib I can’t remember the medical name of it.

Interviewer

That’s okay. But they washed you out because of that?

Joseph Bishop

Well, they had to have something to say. I passed five flight physicals, so it was … So I had my, for some reason I’m taking my x-ray with me of that. There was a little thing on the form that said, “Have you ever been disqualified for active or inactive duty?” Yes, I checked yes because of that I thought, maybe the AFROTC might be considered inactive duty, because I had signed a contract, they had contracted me

Interviewer

You were not yet 21 right?

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. So I shortened the rib and he said, “Okay, I’m gonna put you 4F.” Which meant I was unqualified, physically, to serve.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

Then come to see me, gave me his card, “I’ll take out that rib. Then you will heal and a month or two down the road, 1A, and you will go into the service “ — — •

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

I said, “If you put me 4F, you probably won’t see me again.” I was kind of laughing at it, “Yeah I will. 4F.” — — I went home to my bishop who … Cervical [crosstalk 00:17:36] cervical is the word I’m looking for.

Interviewer

Cervical rib. Okay. So it’s an upper rib?

Joseph Bishop

Yeah.

Interviewer

Right there on your [crosstalk 00:17:43]

Joseph Bishop

It’s right under here.

Interviewer

Clavical.

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know.

Interviewer

There you go.

Joseph Bishop

Maybe it’s somewhere else.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

Went to my bishop and said, “I can now serve a mission.” Back then the bishops didn’t track the age of the youth like they do today. He said, “Are you old enough to go on a mission?” — — Yeah, I had three years of college. “Well, good.” Two months, almost to the day, that I counseled the lord, I called my wife, my wife … My girlfriend gave me my ring back. She broke the engagement.

Interviewer

Because?

Joseph Bishop

Because, I just didn’t feel right about when. It’s not that we were fussing with each other. I couldn’t decide when so she said, and gave me back the ring. That was taken care of.

Interviewer

Wow.

Joseph Bishop

Now you see why I’m saying, and it says nations. I’ve served a mission, two missions in Argentina. I was the area welfare agent for Central America, serving Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama.

Interviewer

You were blessed to be able to learn Spanish so well. Do you speak like a native?

Joseph Bishop

No, I’m not.

Interviewer

Did you then? Was your Spanish really, really good?

Joseph Bishop

My Spanish was pretty good.

Interviewer

Way beyond passable.

Joseph Bishop

Oh yeah.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

Well yes, I think that’s fair to say. Do you want this interview in Spanish?

Interviewer

Oh, god no! (laughs)

Joseph Bishop

Did you serve a mission over there?

Interviewer

No, but I lived there for- — — .

Joseph Bishop

Oh my word. — — Oh my word!

Interviewer

Yeah it’s [crosstalk 00:19:37]

Joseph Bishop

We gotta be writing this article for you.

Interviewer

maybe, but Spanish no. — — No, hardly. There’s nothing special about me.

Joseph Bishop

Oh, I don’t know. That doesn’t sound not unspecial. Is that even a word?

Interviewer

Unspecia l, yes, that’s a word. So, you served that after the MTC. Correct?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

What years did you serve your … Okay, would you call it a welfare mission in CentralAmerica? What was your actual calling?

Joseph Bishop

A missionary with the title of Welfare Agent for Central America.

Interviewer

What year was that?

Joseph Bishop

That was three years, and that’s … Let me go backwards.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

In our mission in ‘83.

Interviewer

[inaudible 00:20:25] what mission in ‘83?

Joseph Bishop

Well, I was president of Weber State.

Interviewer

Oh good god, president of Weber State. I’m so sorry. I’m so unprepared for this interview. You were president of Weber State

Joseph Bishop

College, at that t ime.

Interviewer

Well, okay. Now it’s University right?

Joseph Bishop

Uh-huh (affirmative)

Interviewer

Weber State College.

Joseph Bishop

My task was to get a rating for university status against all the opposit ion.

Interviewer

Apparently, you did well.

Joseph Bishop

I have left there a lot of blood. If you still go there you can see my blood about every [crosstalk 00:21:00]

Interviewer

(laughs) Okay, okay.

Joseph Bishop

Anyway, there’s another experience of how I was called. President Kimball, we won’t go into his background, had a special calling.

Interviewer

From President Kimball. Okay. Was, president of Weber State, was that before or after the MTC?

Joseph Bishop

The sequence is, I was at Weber State, called to be mission president.

Interviewer

Weber State, called to be mission president in Argentina.

Joseph Bishop

Uh-huh (affirmative)

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

Buenos Aires North. I’m surprised you don’t know, that’s the best mission in the whole church.

Interviewer

Is it? Who would have thought? So you went to Weber State.

Joseph Bishop

Then I came back.

Interviewer

During your stay at the Weber State College, you were called to be mission president in Argentina?

Joseph Bishop

Correct.

Interviewer

Okay. You served there from?

Joseph Bishop

’79 to, let’s see.

Interviewer

I hate numbers. I can’t remember.

Joseph Bishop

’79 to ’81. Any way you get [inaudible 00:22:09]

Interviewer

Did you serve three years or

Joseph Bishop

Three years.

Interviewer

So ’79, ’80, ’81, ‘82.

Joseph Bishop

‘82.

Interviewer

To ’82. And then.

Joseph Bishop

Came home.

Interviewer

Home to Delta?

Joseph Bishop

No. Home then was Salt Lake. I left Delta when I left [inaudible 00:22:30] and didn’t go back.

Interviewer

And didn’t go back, okay. Went to Salt Lake, okay, after Argentina. Okay.

Joseph Bishop

Received a call from President Hinckley one day, calling president of the MTC in Provo.

Interviewer

That’s, that’s quite a … Wow.

Joseph Bishop

Not really.

Interviewer

You don’t think it was a wow?

Joseph Bishop

Well, I didn’t at the time. I do now. I look back and say, “Wow, that’s interesting.”

Interviewer

So, at the MTC, how many missionaries would come … How many missionaries did you have in your mission, overall, in Argentina?

Joseph Bishop

Depended on the month. It fluctuated according to the.

Interviewer

Coming and going?

Joseph Bishop

Yeah.

Interviewer

So, what was an average?

Joseph Bishop

About 180.

Interviewer

180 missionaries?

Joseph Bishop

Now, I could be wrong on my figures.

Interviewer

It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t have to be a direct quote. So you callings, leading up to your … Okay, I have that. Do you remember any favorite missionaries that you had in Argentina? You don’t have to call them by name, but just by story.

Joseph Bishop

I might be, I won’t say reluctant but, to name one is to offend two. [crosstalk 00:24:02]

Interviewer

Others. Oh, to offend two.

Joseph Bishop

It’s just a [crosstalk 00:24:05]

Interviewer

I understand. So, would you prefer not to.

Joseph Bishop

Let me refer to those as I tell you about the spiritual experiences that happen in a mission. I’ll refer to them as two sister missionaries did such and such. Will that work for you?

Interviewer

Sure. I don’t need any names.

Joseph Bishop

So, the sequence, we’ve got the MTC.

Interviewer

This is before the MTC. Argentina.

Joseph Bishop

Which Argentina? I was the young missionary [crosstalk 00:24:41]

Interviewer

Not as a missionary, as a mission president. You’re talking about, as a mission president in Buenos Aires North Mission.

Joseph Bishop

Right.

Interviewer

Two favorite missionaries, or a story about two sister missionaries that was one of [crosstalk 00:24:54]

Joseph Bishop

So, as I relate, let’s take them one at a time in terms of this mission, and this mission, and this mission. Will that, will that sequence [crosstalk 00:25:03]

Interviewer

Okay, yeah. You want to talk about your mission as a missionary first? Is that the story you were about to tell me? Or as a mission president?

Joseph Bishop

I was just trying to get the sequence for you.

Interviewer

Okay, go ahead.

Joseph Bishop

was with me for both the MTC and the Argentine mission. After the mission, let’s see now I’m gonna get … Came back from the mission, and then I served at the MTC. After the MTC, I … President Monson called me and said … Back to some of my … President Kimball was special to me because he called me under special circumstances to be a mission president. I knew him well.

Interviewer

To Weber State College?

Joseph Bishop

From Weber State College.

Interviewer

From Weber State College to Buenos Aires North?

Joseph Bishop

Right. When I came back as president, let’s see. Let me back up. When I became of Weber State, on the board of regents, it’s the governing board for the university.

Interviewer

Yes sir.

Joseph Bishop

There is always a member of the church, in general authority, on that board.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

That man became my first contact. When I was president at Weber, I had a problem, if I had a question about, what would the regents say about this or that, I would call my first contact, which was Thomas Monson. So we had that association.

Interviewer

He was an apostle at the t ime?

Joseph Bishop

He was not … He was an apostle, he’s been an apostle forever, 50 years. He was an apostle [crosstalk 00:26:58]

Interviewer

Quorum of the Twelve. No, I think he was … Okay, presidency.

Joseph Bishop

Later, Harold 8. Lee, I met Harold 8. Lee in courtesy call when the President of Weber, or any university, go around, you’d meet the governor, you’d meet the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Harold B. Lee, shortly afterwards, Harold B. Lee died. — — Then, President Monson became counselor in the first presidency and Neil Maxwe ll became my first contact on the board of regents.

Interviewer

At Weber State?

Joseph Bishop

Yeah, when I was at Weber State. Does that help get you confused?

Interviewer

Oh my gosh, no. That clears up a lot of stuff. This isn’t gonna be able to be put in one little story.

Joseph Bishop

I know.

Interviewer

Okay, so?

Joseph Bishop

We had, _ — — and I had insurance at church service. We had the MTC, before the MTC we had Buenos Aires North. Then MTC. Then later, I went over to BYU. I was a professor over there for ten years.

Interviewer

You went to BYU as a professor for ten years after the MTC which was 19…

Joseph Bishop

Let’s see, 186. ‘83? ’86. About [crosstalk 00:28:29]

Interviewer

You were ’83 to 186 at the MTC?

Joseph Bishop

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Interviewer

Okay. I’m confused, sorry. This is so much more than I expected. Okay, so ’83 to ’86 at the MTC, and then you went to BYU as a professor of what?

Joseph Bishop

I was in the education department.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

I was actually given an assignment, an administrative assignment as Executive Director of Consortium, of six, I think it was six school districts. So, we … Funds for them. — — My background is instructional strategies and management.

Interviewer

Is that your PhD?

Joseph Bishop

That’s actually the PhD.

Interviewer

Oh my gosh. Wow.

Joseph Bishop

Can’t hold a job, just keep bouncing around.

Interviewer

(laughs) Well, you’ve certainly been blessed financially to be able to.

Joseph Bishop

I’ve been blessed.

Interviewer

Yeah, I think the lord provides for those who serve. Wouldn’t you say?

Joseph Bishop

Uh-huh (affirmative) Maybe not financially, but sure provides. Which, is another story … I just got out of the hospital three days ago, had a miraculous thing happen there.

Interviewer

What happened there?

Joseph Bishop

Do you have the time?

Interviewer

I have time, yes.

Joseph Bishop

When- — — my second wife, got the divorce, she was frustrated about life and things. She had a real problem with any man, trusting.

Interviewer

Why?

Joseph Bishop

Because, her husband was a…

Interviewer

Cheater?

Joseph Bishop

Yeah.

Interviewer

Is that all? Just a cheater?

Joseph Bishop

Is that all?

Interviewer

I don’t need to write that down.

Joseph Bishop

No?

Interviewer

No. Well, it’s not pertinent information. Okay, so she had a cheating husband, right?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

And, she had trouble trusting any man, or just priesthood leaders?

Joseph Bishop

She now trusts me and loves me.

Interviewer

What changed?

Joseph Bishop

The divorce. I was there. I had … She’s a nurse retired of course. She’s 82. I’m 85.

Interviewer

You robbed the cradle there. Is she as beautiful as your first wife was?

Joseph Bishop

I guess it’s another one of the spirits, I told you there wasn’t any, we weren’t going to … The relationship wasn’t going anywhere. I said, I told her. Then, we went to the temple because she had t ime, and I didn’t know what else to do with her. [crosstalk 00:31:17]

Interviewer

(laughs) [inaudible 00:31:17] again?

Joseph Bishop

Yeah.

Interviewer

Wow, that’s remarkable.

Joseph Bishop

It is remarkable. Married her, knowing that she had all these problems. I don’t mean to put it a ll on her so much, but there’s not doubt she had serious problems. And we struggled, we struggled, we struggled. Finally, one day she, she kept wanting divorce from day one. I said, “Give it time. We’ll work it out.” You know. — — Then it finally happened and I left St. George. She left St. George. I felt like I’d been hit with a truck because I lost all my friends, I lost my … I was on the High Council in the stake doing a project on missionary work that was meaningful to me and changing things there.

Interviewer

Oh wow.

Joseph Bishop

So, that happened. She also saved my life, incidentally. I had a pain and I said, “Okay nurse, what’s this pain?” She said, “Give me your hand.” I gave her my hand, it was clammy. She stood me up, dug in her purse, pulled out an aspirin, “Chew this, come with me, sit here.” Took me to the hospita l. They didn’t let me out of the hospital, they took me right in. I had open heart surgery, quadruple bypass.

Interviewer

Holy Hannah.

Joseph Bishop

Saved my life.

Interviewer

Apparently, she did.

Joseph Bishop

So there we are, a few years later and she wants to divorce me so … Now I’m at limited funds because the bubble burst, I lost a home that was worth — — over a million dollars, I thought … and money to- — — ended up in jail who was one of my missionaries, hurt my feelings …

Interviewer

Yeah I bet that did.

Joseph Bishop

I’m giving you too much information.

Interviewer

Were you a missionary in Argentina?

Joseph Bishop

No,

Interviewer

I’m sorry.

Joseph Bishop

The divorce thing happened and then she came here when I came here, but I came here because I had a son here, she came here because of family, but we weren’t gonna get together …

Interviewer

Right.

Joseph Bishop

Um… So I came here and I found, it’s a little resort community for adults. Old people go there.

Interviewer

I can’t see you there. But okay.

Joseph Bishop

I can’t, I really like it, not because there’s, there’s a big pool, and there’s two pools, there’s golf, and I don’t golf, there’s pickle ball, I don’t pickle ball, there’s all these things, but people are so friendly. That’s what I like about it . And there’s a restaurant there and the post office, and it’s like a little teeny community.

Interviewer

Like a little town.

Joseph Bishop

Very. And it’s cute. So I came to town and said I need to go find a cardiologist. My son who is a medical doctor here, and I called him and he said, this one over here, went to see him and now I’ve left my cardio logist all through the …

Interviewer

The one at St. George?

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. The thoracic surgeon there that operated on me was uh, he nicked my artery into my heart and sutured it shut. So right after the operation I was in serious trouble.

Interviewer

Oh my gosh.

Joseph Bishop

It was the cardiologist who saved my life then. My blessing says my life will be protected until my mission is finished. I just don’t know what my mission is. So — — [inaudible 00:35:13] anyway, I haven’t said this to anybody in a while, so if you don’t mind …

Interviewer

I don’t mind. Go ahead. I’m just gonna …

Joseph Bishop

But you’re busy and …

Interviewer

No, please.

Joseph Bishop

So, there’s reason why she wasn’t here today, I’ve been able to talk about it since she never felt comfortable.

Interviewer

One of the reasons I try to interview people alone.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. So I’ve been here alone and she called and we got together and she apologized, and she’s been thinking about ever since she made that whole new woman out of herself actually, she was looking at what she needed to do and not what I needed to do because, you need to do this, you need to do that …

Interviewer

Right.

Joseph Bishop

All …

Interviewer

No.

Joseph Bishop

She isn’t like that.

Interviewer

Right.

Joseph Bishop

And she’s just been an adult. So the doctor, I went to the doctor and said well, it’s been ten years, and some [00:36:14] and I think you have a valve problem. So I need to look into that so we had an MRI and all kinds of things I do, but it’s not anything, it’s not operable, and it’s not that serious yet, so, you know. I’m looking, I have five more years, that makes me 90. I’m happy, don’t you think? To 90? Unless I get to 90, then I’ll want 100.

Interviewer

Then no wait a minute, can I get a few more?

Joseph Bishop

So anyway he got to the point he said we need to do an angiogram. Do you know what an angiogram is?

Interviewer

I do.

Joseph Bishop

So I didn’t want to do one, I’ve had three others through the years, and they’re not pleasant, fun. So I said okay, an angiogram, but I just got out of the hospital. He found that one stent to my route to the heart, 90 percent blocked.

Interviewer

90 percent?

Joseph Bishop

90 percent. And so it was just feeling, not that having some pains, that fear, and I told him that, and that’s why he wanted the angiogram. Long story short, he put a stent inside the scar tissue had built up, that is what had blocked off …

Interviewer

Where the doctor had nicked you before? And sewn it up?

Joseph Bishop

No, that was …

Interviewer

Different an area …

Joseph Bishop

That was a different area.

Interviewer

Wow.

Joseph Bishop

That was the bypass they did because he’d sutured it up.

Interviewer

The last t ime. Yeah.

Joseph Bishop

He was like my leader and my high priest quorum.

Interviewer

No kidding.

Joseph Bishop

So anyway so he was finally able to cut out the cartilage and put another stent in and broaden pushing the other stent that was already there up and out to get it flowing.

Interviewer

Nice.

Joseph Bishop

That was two days ago.

Interviewer

Oh! Oh. That was two days ago.

Joseph Bishop

It was two days ago.

Interviewer

Wow.

Joseph Bishop

Had I not been divorced, meaning had to move …

Interviewer

From St. George to here?

Joseph Bishop

From George to someplace, here obviously, this guy is probably three out of the nation that does the stuff that he does.

Interviewer

That’s remarkable.

Joseph Bishop

Lucky to be with him.

Interviewer

Lucky. That luck, is it?

Joseph Bishop

Oh you know …

Interviewer

I know exactly what you’re saying …

Joseph Bishop

So now, — — saying how blessed we were that we got the divorce, and how blessed we are to be back together again, finally getting married the first of the year.

Interviewer

Wow.

Joseph Bishop

So isn’t … Do you see what I’m saying?

Interviewer

I do.

Joseph Bishop

I have so many stories like this.

Interviewer

Well …

Joseph Bishop

So …

Interviewer

Let me ask you one thing.

Joseph Bishop

We haven’t really begun on this, what I want to say about helping other mission presidents.

Interviewer

Well … that’s true. We might have to re-interview for that. But I have a question for you.

Joseph Bishop

Sure.

Interviewer

So you were mission president for the MTC in 83–86.

Joseph Bishop

Probably, yeah.

Interviewer

Luckily. And after that you were at the old church for ten years.

Joseph Bishop

Uh-huh.

Interviewer

So …

Joseph Bishop

Then after that I got a call from Bob Wells. Elder Wells.

Interviewer

Wells … Oh.

Joseph Bishop

Elder … Robert E. Wells.

Interviewer

Yeah.

Joseph Bishop

We’ve been friends for forty years. He was my file leader when I was mission president.

Interviewer

He was your what leader?

Joseph Bishop

File leader. Back then they didn’t have area presidents.

Interviewer

File leader, what’s that mean?

Joseph Bishop

Just file leader. He was my guy that I had to get permission … he was my leader.

Interviewer

He was your guy. He was your contact.

Joseph Bishop

Uh-huh. He called and said what are you doing? I said, I’m bored to death at BYU, and he said well, we need somebody. Do you want another story? You don’t. This could go on forever and ever.

Interviewer

I do, go ahead. Well actually I do. I have a few specific ones to get to but yeah, I want to hear everything.

Joseph Bishop

Give me guidance and I’ll just follow.

Interviewer

Well there are some things about the MTC that I wanted to ask you about. I was in — — as I told you before, for a number of years, and I worked for the — — . I was at the MTC in 84, and you were my mission president.

Joseph Bishop

No wonder you’re so talented.

Interviewer

Is that why? Is that right? So you know the last couple years, I’ve worked as an addiction specia list.

Joseph Bishop

As a what specialist?

Interviewer

Addiction.

Joseph Bishop

Oh have you?

Interviewer

Yeah I worked in courts for a number of years. Mostly getting people with drug and alcohol addiction issues to treatment. — — Yep. Those are some of the things I dealt with for a very long time. But some of the things that I understood, or that I came to learn about that, is addiction is a disease. — — And the things they do to get the alcohol, for example most of my clients were addicted to drugs. The ones who were really guilty of shoplifting, took high doses of Xanax. Now explain that to me. Do you know what Xanax is?

Joseph Bishop

I have …

Interviewer

An anti-anxiety. They start taking the Xanax and they go, and they start shoplifting. And they have no idea they’re doing it. I don’t know why. But every time I’d go to court there, and the judge would say, hey — — , could you come up here we’ve got a, could you do an assessment on this guy, he’s just shoplifted nail polish. Like, nail polish? I’d talk to him, and he’d say well uh, well you know I didn’t mean it. Well why did you steal nail polish of all things? I don’t know. What were you taking? Xanax. Okay. — — Well one thing I learned is that people when they have some kind of an addiction, like my step-father was violently sexually abusive. And you and I talked about that at MTC. And …

Joseph Bishop

We did?

Interviewer

Yes we did, yeah.

Joseph Bishop

There’s my bad memory again.

Interviewer

There’s your bad memory, anyway, yeah you helped me understand that it wasn’t my fault, which was really amazing. But you also kind of groomed me, a little bit, and you took me down into the basement, it wasn’t really a basement, but it was downstairs, a little storage room.

Joseph Bishop

Mm-hmm.

Interviewer

I’m not angry w ith you, because I think …

Joseph Bishop

You ought to be …

Interviewer

Well maybe, but I’m not. I’m over a lot of things that have happened to me. But you hurt me. And I need an apology.

Joseph Bishop

Well I apologize, from the depths of my heart, I can’t remember what it was but I’m …

Interviewer

Okay, let’s go back a little bit, and I’ll tell you, because …

Joseph Bishop

Well yeah, tell me.

Interviewer

I have struggled for 33 years with what you did to me. And I am only interested in an apology. I reported what you did to me to Elder Asay. Do you remember him?

Joseph Bishop

Oh yeah.

Interviewer

Quorum of the Seventy. Did he ever talk to you?

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

Did anybody from Salt Lake ever tell you that you were accused of sexual assault.

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

You were never disfellowshipped, had a counsel?

Joseph Bishop

I felt I’d repented. I’d confessed.

Interviewer

Oh.

Joseph Bishop

That time.

Interviewer

You confessed about me?

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know about I confessed all of my sins to Elder Wells when I was in the mission. But anyway, let me apologize.

Interviewer

Well all right. Well 1, you know, I have needed that for a long time, but let me, let me just carry on a little bit .

Joseph Bishop

Sure.

Interviewer

Um, what you did to me destroyed my faith and testimony in priesthood leaders, and in The Church.

Joseph Bishop

Wow.

Interviewer

You took me down, you don’t remember taking a sister missionary downstairs into the basement? Okay, let me say this. I made all this time and you know from a long t ime ago, 33 years ago was a long t ime. I need an apology, and I need an admission, and I need to know what was ever done if anything, because I have carried this and it has destroyed my life. So do you remember the room in the basement?

Joseph Bishop

I do.

Interviewer

Do you remember the movies in the basement? The DVD, the VHS player and the TV? No. Do you remember tearing my blouse, pulling up my skirt, ripping the back of my skirt and trying to rape me? But you didn’t, because you didn’t have a fu ll erection. You don’t remember that?

Joseph Bishop

No. Let me tell you what I do remember.

Interviewer

Okay. Do you know who I am?

Joseph Bishop

No. I don’t. Are you, yeah I do.

Interviewer

I threatened to kill you in 2010.

Joseph Bishop

Do you have some biker friends?

Interviewer

No, biker friends? God, no.

Joseph Bishop

You had, you came in the mission … tell me your name. — — Your last name back then. — — — · — — You came in to the mission and you had had a tough life.

Interviewer

And you know that because … we had conversations.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah.

Interviewer

Yes that’s correct.

Joseph Bishop

You went over to the temple, had your picture taken, was that?

Interviewer

No.

Joseph Bishop

Okay.

Interviewer

You gave me permission to go to the temple because I had been raped and had a baby out of wedlock.

Joseph Bishop

Okay I remember that.

Interviewer

Gave the baby up for adoption to a …

Joseph Bishop

I remember that.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

Okay I’m glad to run into you again.

Interviewer

Oh really?

Joseph Bishop

Oh yes.

Interviewer

Why?

Joseph Bishop

Well you think that that kind of thing doesn’t affect me also. Because you had been bouncing, I’m telling you some very deep spiritual experiences that have happened to me

Interviewer

And I believe them.

Joseph Bishop

They’re true. I love the Lord is so forgiving. That I had an addiction.

Interviewer

Yes. I know that now.

Joseph Bishop

Do you?

Interviewer

I didn’t know that then. — — I’m sorry. We don’t recover from those things.

Joseph Bishop

Well 1 , mine was different, mine was, as a young boy I didn’t have a sister, so I didn’t know anything about girls.

Interviewer

She died.

Joseph Bishop

And I was, I didn’t grow physically.

Interviewer

So you were always small?

Joseph Bishop

Always.

Interviewer

Yeah I was too.

Joseph Bishop

Were you?

Interviewer

Yeah, in fact I didn’t even have breasts on my mission, it was after my mission or into my mission that I developed breasts, yeah I was, yeah, I was so far behind.

Joseph Bishop

Well, it’s affected me in a funny way. I felt, uh …

Interviewer

Do you mind if I don’t write this down? I’ll just set this aside.

Joseph Bishop

I hope today to, yeah I don’t care about that right now.

Interviewer

This I care about, but yeah … thank you …

Joseph Bishop

Okay. No it’s a healing thing. I want us both to heal some more.

Interviewer

Well I need to show some compassion, which has been difficult for me. I am …

Joseph Bishop

Did you know who I was when you …

Interviewer

Oh yeah, that’s why I came here.

Joseph Bishop

Oh really.

Interviewer

Oh well that’s part of the reason, the other part is, yeah, no yeah that’s part of the reason. I have not healed. I reported this to Salt Lake when I came home from our mission before I got married [00:50:12) They sent Elder Asay to me. Elder Asay interviewed me, he said he would talk to you directly. I never heard anything. Apparently Elder Asay didn’t interview you.

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

No one ever said hey what about this woman you tried to rape at the MTC? Nobody ever said that? No. So is it a coverup?

Joseph Bishop

Well I don’t, I don’t know.

Interviewer

What do you know?

Joseph Bishop

I know that I had an addiction, and I know that I was forever, when I was in high school I was a really short kid and I invited a short girl to go to a dance, and she said to me …

Interviewer

At church or at school?

Joseph Bishop

This was a school dance.

Interviewer

Yeah …

Joseph Bishop

She said come back and see me when you grow up.

Interviewer

Oh, sorry.

Joseph Bishop

That’s, no, no …

Interviewer

It affects us.

Joseph Bishop

But I have this thing about, I have this sexual addiction, what can I say?

Interviewer

But, did you get treatment?

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

So what did you, how …

Joseph Bishop

I kept fighting, and I kept trying to pray and this and that and everything else to get over it. I’m now, I now feel healed in the sense that I am not tempted … Did you notice what I did when you came in?

Interviewer

Shook my hand?

Joseph Bishop

No, I opened those so …

Interviewer

Oh, I yeah no, I didn’t notice that they look fine.

Joseph Bishop

Well I, just so you know, I don’t put myself in …

Interviewer

In a position to … let me tell you some of the things that you did in MTC, and I need closure, I’m not angry but I am a broken woman because of the things that you did. Okay one of the things you did, what you told me, that you and other leaders, and I didn’t know what leaders meant at the time, would go to a place, and I don’t know if it was a hot tub or a hot springs, in Wyoming. Did you remember that?

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

Had that ever happened? Why would you tell me that then?

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know.

Interviewer

Okay. There was woman in the hot tub, or at the springs or whatever with you and these other people who took her bikini top off. You don’t remember that?

Joseph Bishop

I had an experience similar to that, but it wasn’t in a hot tub.

Interviewer

What was it in? What was it?

Joseph Bishop

She, well it was in Utah, it wasn’t in Wyoming.

Interviewer

Do I have my areas mixed up?

Joseph Bishop

Probably. Because that’s only, it did happen.

Interviewer

But that did happen, oh, so maybe it was Utah, okay. How about this one. You told me that …

Joseph Bishop

Was I trying to titillate you?

Interviewer

I believe that you were grooming me, is what you were doing. And there was another girl, we’ll talk about her in a minute. Um, you told me that you liked it when you and your wife, — — apparently, had dinner alone. Candlelit dinner. And she had this …

Joseph Bishop

We would take [00:53:36]

Interviewer

Yes, and she was, you liked it when she pulled it down over her breasts and exposed her breasts at dinner.

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

Okay. But, okay, so, your addiction was the problem. I understand that. I understand that more than you know, only because I worked in substance abuse, addiction.

Joseph Bishop

From the other side of it was, — — was not …

Interviewer

You know what, we don’t need to talk about — — The fact that I was a missionary, and you were my mission president and you were sharing that was the problem.

Joseph Bishop

That’s true.

Interviewer

Yeah. So, but you had that storage room. Why did you take me down there? And why would you do what you tried to do?

Joseph Bishop

I think at that time I was still very much addicted.

Interviewer

You were really struggling?

Joseph Bishop

Oh my. I have struggled. I have struggled my whole life on this very issue.

Interviewer

With no counseling, no way of making a change of behavior?

Joseph Bishop

How could you, how could even … I used to say to myself all the time, I’m a hypocrite.

Interviewer

You were.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah, of course.

Interviewer

Yeah, damn right you were.

Joseph Bishop

Okay now what can a hypocrite do.

Interviewer

Oh, yeah. So you tried to change your behavior …

Joseph Bishop

Tried to solve it myself. I’m not going to do this anymore, I’m not going to do this anymore, I’m not going to think about this, I’m not going to, you know …

Interviewer

So you tried, your own kind of mind control where you focus on the appropriate things and try to set aside the things …

Joseph Bishop

All of those things … all of those things …

Interviewer

So, how many other women are there? How many other missionaries? How many other young women in The Church have been destroyed like me? I’m not a member of The Church anymore.

Joseph Bishop

I’m sorry.

Interviewer

I haven’t been for years. You know …

Joseph Bishop

Because of me?

Interviewer

Partly because of you. You know my stepfather was a pedophile, but he was not Mormon. I joined The Church. I lived …

Joseph Bishop

I remember that …

Interviewer

A very good healthy life. Went on a mission. All I wanted to do was serve the Lord. That is all I wanted to do. And you singled me out the very first day. The very first day you asked me to bear my testimony. And then the next time the missionaries met you asked me to give the prayer. And then you would call me out of class, the other missionaries were teasing me calling me teacher’s pet, and I can’t record, oh, ridiculous things. But I was so flattered. I thought I was so special. And you told me that I was special. That even though I had been abused that the Lord loved me. And that I was going to be amazing.

Joseph Bishop

I remember that.

Interviewer

I wasn’t amazing. I was nothing. I was no one. I was just a missionary. I was just like all the other kids, well 21 year o ld, 19 year o ld, trying to serve the Lord. And you took that away from me. And then you tried to rape me.

Joseph Bishop

That part I don’t remember.

Interviewer

Oh how convenient. I need, I need closure.

Joseph Bishop

I’m not trying to be convenient. I’m trying to be honest.

Interviewer

Okay Joe, I need, I need closure. Because I have options. I just want this to be over between you and me.

Joseph Bishop

I’m, I appreciate that. I do.

Interviewer

So did you, when you talked to Brother Wells and you repented, did you talk about this?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

You talked about what you did with me and other women?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

How many other women are there?

Joseph Bishop

It’s not that there’s so many other women, it’s just the two that were there, I remember one when I was in the Bishopric.

Interviewer

Oh yeah.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah.

Interviewer

That was so long before you were at the mission, a mission president.

Joseph Bishop

That was.

Interviewer

Oh my God.

Joseph Bishop

And I remember you.

Interviewer

Do you remember the other girl with me?

Joseph Bishop

Pardon me?

Interviewer

Do you remember the other girl with me? The other one you were grooming? Her name was- — — — — — Yes, that’s her last name.

Joseph Bishop

l remember-

Interviewer

Did you molest her?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

Did you [inaudible]?

Joseph Bishop

Oh yes.

Interviewer

To her?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

Directly?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

Well where the hell were you when …

Joseph Bishop

With you.

Interviewer

When I recorded, why did you not ever, ever …

Joseph Bishop

Let me go back to the- — — thing to make sure I get it a ll out and all straight.

Interviewer

Please.

Joseph Bishop

I had a thing going with Elder Asay. There were sisters. This is another thing that happened to me.

Interviewer

Oh my God I’m so sorry. Okay. Please tell me. I’m sorry that anything happened to you.

Joseph Bishop

Well it wasn’t, well it … when I became president of the MTC I found that sister missionaries would come in and in that environment pray and trying to do everything that I said or that other people said or the church said, pretty soon they’d have flashbacks …

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

Of being molested.

Interviewer

I can see that. I can see that because you are who you are, and you’re on this pedestal, and the spirit is really strong regardless of how worthy the vessel, the spirit is really really strong in the MTC. Aww, so what happened with-

Joseph Bishop

had been molested, or maybe she hadn’t been. I never could quite tell.

Interviewer

She was. You and I and she talked about it all together in the same meeting.

Joseph Bishop

Did we?

Interviewer

Yes sir.

Joseph Bishop

Anyway I was stressed unwittingly and unwantingly into a work with …

Interviewer

Women like me?

Joseph Bishop

Women who had been harmed.

Interviewer

Traumatized.

Joseph Bishop

Traumatized. And I was not strong. The last person who should have been in that situation was me. I shouldn’t have been in that position. But anyway, there I was.- — — tried to commit suicide there at the MTC. I had asked Elder Asay on several occasions, well several, maybe twice, I needed a budget increase for a counselor for these women. And he had heard Elder Packer give a speech to Bishop’s I think, or maybe it was the conference address, but he said don’t, Elder Asey’s interpretation of this is don’t go to counselors, professional counselors, when you have a Bishop. Go to the Bishop. — — A Bishop who is not even qualified to deal with that kind of trauma? — — Well, I don’t know the speech. I didn’t read the speech.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

Elder Asay, I found out later that that’s what he had heard, and so his, he reported to Elder Packer, and Elder Packer, Elder Asay wanted to do what Elder Packer wanted.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

So I’d asked for help to get a, get me out of it. And get somebody in that was qualified to handle the situation. And I got turned down. In this process­ up on the second floor of that one building, threatened to jump out head first on the cement two stories down. I, they called me, I was able to talk her down off that ledge.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

And I was angry at Elder Asay. I got in the car and I went to Elder Asay and I said, okay, do you understand what just happened? If someone commits suicide in the MTC because they didn’t have special counseling, then it’s on you, it’s not on me, because I now asked for the last time, that we need to get a counselor and he then took that because of the seriousness of the situation. She tried to commit suicide, well I don’t know, wouldn’t you say that’s trying to commit suicide, up there and threatening to jump off? Whatever it was, it was serious.

Interviewer

All right.

Joseph Bishop

It was serious. And he got me money, and I found Brother- I think was his name. He was excellent. He recommended that- not go on missions, but work there in the MTC. And she ended up living with us. — — Well when did you molest her? — — When she was living with us. — — Oh God. — — I want to tell you about this.

Interviewer

Please do.

Joseph Bishop

[Crosstalk) — — — came in and she wanted a back rub. And I rubbed her back. And that got too much…frisky. that’s all that ever happened with all, and with- … I must have, you know that was hard on- too.

Interviewer

So did your wife know?

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

You were never called into a church council, church court, even after you confessed to Elder Wells, there was never a fellowship, nothing?

Joseph Bishop

No I hadn’t confessed all those things before Elder Wells, but wanted to redo it. I struggled to make sure that everything was taken care of.

Interviewer

And transparent.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah.

Interviewer

And isn’t part of the repentance process you say you’re sorry to the people that you wronged, and you’ve never said you’re sorry to me once.

Joseph Bishop

I lost track of you dear.

Interviewer

I contacted the church over the years several times, several times.

Joseph Bishop

About me?

Interviewer

Yes, about you. I wanted to know what happened. Did he admit it? Was he sorry? Did he deny it? Did he call me a liar? Yeah, absolutely. And this last year I contacted my stake president where I live in- — — and he said, he cried, he said you know what that should have never happened, let me find out. It’s been a year. Nothing. So here I am because I want an apology and I appreciate your honesty, except I find it very odd that you remember details about everything except the basement from what you did to me there.

Joseph Bishop

What I remember about the basement was different.

Interviewer

Oh?

Joseph Bishop

Uh-huh. You had had an operation, a breast enhancement.

Interviewer

No. (laughs) N o. I had no boobs at 21 years old.

Joseph Bishop

Well you’d talked about it because you had no boobs at 21 I’d thought you had a new …

Interviewer

Why would I have, why would we talk about having a boob job at 21 and you thinking I’d had a boob job when I had no breasts whatsoever?

Joseph Bishop

I, yeah.

Interviewer

I wore a padded bra, so I think your, I think your understanding was skewed.

Joseph Bishop

Anyway, that’s what I remember about … — — That’s what I remember about … honestly.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

[crosstalk 01:06:11] I want to ask you a question.

Interviewer

Please. I will answer you directly. Straight away. God’s honest truth.

Joseph Bishop

I want you to know that I’m so sorry, and I’m so sorry, I want to be so honest, I want all of that —

Interviewer

Before you die, to be done?

Joseph Bishop

Before I die, to be done.

Interviewer

I … I feel that way, too.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah, I don’t have any … thing left from the desire. And that. I’m still catch.. [inaudible 01:06:53] very carefully now. In my relationships.

Interviewer

I appreciate that. I do. And I respect that.

Joseph Bishop

Let me just.. you want an apology. I want to give you an apology. I don’t know what I can do about it, because here we are, after all these years, but it just… it just hurts my heart to see you suffering like I suffered. I understand, because it’s a two way street. I have suffered —

Interviewer

You know, it’s funny. I told you a story, I don’t know if you remember this, I’ll remind you and you can tell me if you recall this. My step-father was a pedophile.

Joseph Bishop

I remember that. I remember you telling me that.

Interviewer

When I was in 4th grade, I went to the hospital, I had bronchitis. And sat on the table. They had to bring in the defibrillator thing, and I floated above my body, and I saw my stepfather and my mother and my stepfather was crying. And I remember thinking, why is he crying? So I’m watching from above, looking around, I can tell you every freckle on that doctor’s head. And then a nurse —

Joseph Bishop

How old were you?

Interviewer

4th grade. I don’t know how old, exactly. So about 9, I don’t know. — — I followed them, and I just followed them, and they went into this room and they closed the door and I went right through the door. Called the pray room, said on the door. Pray room. And I remember my stepfather was crying, and I remember thinking why is he crying? He doesn’t even like me. Why is he crying? And for one nano second, I felt his pain. And it was horrible. This guilt, this self loathing, this absolute gut-wrenching I hate myself. I couldn’t bear it. My little spirit was too tender. — — And I went right back to my body. And I never forgot it. And that’s why I was able to forgive him. Because I’d rather be me than him. So the truth is, even though you tried to rape me, and you couldn’t get full erection, you still —

Joseph Bishop

Why would I not remember that? — — Well. — — That’s terrible. — — Yeah, that was pretty damn terrible. But I’d rather be me than you. — — I would rather be you than me.

Interviewer

I have had real serious issues with priesthood holders ever since. Half of them have been unfaithful, and I figured you know, maybe it’s just me. Maybe it’s just me. Maybe I’m just a magnet for men who take advantages of vulnerable women. You just … I don’t know how many women there are, but if this story went public, you would be the Harvey Weinstein or whatever the hell his name is of the Mormon church. True?

Joseph Bishop

I would be. — — Yes you would be. — — I would be.

Interviewer

How many women have you apologized to? At least — — obviously. Is she still alive?

Joseph Bishop

I haven’t… she contacted… she did what you did, appropriately so. She made an attempt to find out. I did [inaudible 01:10:22] her. Anyway. I had a conversation with an authority called me —

Interviewer

Who?

Joseph Bishop

Somebody in the church, I don’t remember their name.

Interviewer

Okay. It was a long time ago.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. Years and years ago. And she had made the same thing you had done. I confessed. She had her problems, too. Poor — — But. Mine was the big problem. — — You think — — — Cause she had others that did things to her that I didn’t do to her. She had —

Interviewer

you know what? We’re not talking about — wait a second. I understand addiction, I do. I understand apologies. I understand compassion, which I am throwing out there for you. But don’t poor — — me. — — had her own situation. I have my own situation. Her childhood and my childhood were very, very similar. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what you did to us.

Joseph Bishop

I agree. — — And it is not just — — and it is not just me. And though you may have just rubbed her back, and she reported it, there is no way in hell that I reported, and what [inaudible 01:11:51] talked about never got back to you.

Interviewer

Unless there is some kind of cover-up at the church. So I want to know the truth. I want to know what the fuck happened. That’s what I want to know. And I need an answer, and I need an answer today.

Joseph Bishop

I can only surmise, what I surmise with you, I don’t know if the word cover-up is the right word. I don’t know what happened. But Elder Asay never talked to me about it. That’s the truth. [crosstalk 01:12:32] — — I understand —

Interviewer

About me? About other women?

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

Who talked to you about other women?

Joseph Bishop

A bishop in Florida.

Interviewer

And who was the woman?

Joseph Bishop

She was a friend of ours, who … she made a swimsuit that she wanted to show us, me and another guy. I don’t remember. I’m trying to be very honest about this.

Interviewer

I can see that and I appreciate it but I’m really pissed off right now, I’m angry, so if I’m aggressive, I apologize.

Joseph Bishop

No, that’s okay. I understand. All I’m feeling is pain for you for the pain that I’ve caused.

Interviewer

You have no fucking idea the pain you have caused me. And other women. You have no idea. No idea.

Joseph Bishop

I can only believe what you say.

Interviewer

When you have an addiction and you recognize and you’re doing things to young vulnerable women, broken women, who are looking only to make their lives better and serve the Lord, you took advantage of us, and you just stayed — not only did you stay in that calling. You go on and take other callings. You expect callings from the Brethren. Without saying, you know what, I haven’t — I don’t think this is a good time for me. — — Or oh I don’t know, I have molested or tried to rape some of my missionaries. How many of the sisters in Argentina?

Joseph Bishop

None.

Interviewer

Oh, sweet. You were so brazen with me, that was not the first t ime. That was not the first t ime. How many others are there? How many?

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 01:14:31]

Interviewer

If this goes public, how many women are going to come and say oh my god, me too. How many?

Joseph Bishop

Point well taken.

Interviewer

Okay, I know this point is well taken. I want to know how many. I want to know that I am not the only one,. — — I want to know that I am not the only one.

Joseph Bishop

You are not the only one.

Interviewer

I know I’m not the only one. How many are there?

Joseph Bishop

When I was a young missionary, in Argentina, [inaudible 01:15:08], there was a lady. I went to the mission president, halfway confessed, didn’t tell him all that happened, so you can’t blame him for not [inaudible 01:15:30]. There was nothing .. when I was in Florida, there was this lady I just told you about.

Interviewer

In Florida, how old was she?

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 01:15:43]

Interviewer

Terrible. Before Argentina? Before the mission residency of Argentina, or after? Or do you remember?

Joseph Bishop

That would be before.

Interviewer

Okay. What did you do with her?

Joseph Bishop

She.. showed me her sun suit, which was revealing.

Interviewer

Revealing her breasts, revealing … everything?

Joseph Bishop

No, no, a skimpy swimsuit .

Interviewer

Why did she think it was okay to do that?

Joseph Bishop

Because she… i don’t know. She was … into [inaudible 01:16:29]. I know you don’t want to talk about_ — — , but part of the problem was there was no sex in our lives.

Interviewer

You told me that in the MTC.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah, okay. So that was motivation of all of these things t itilated me —

Interviewer

It normally wouldn’t happened if you’d had a better relationship with your wife.

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know. I want to think that a normal relationship would’ve done it . But being .. I did go into therapy years later, I’d forgotten about that. And the woman there was… [inaudible 01:17:21] that I had, pretty strong, pretty solid addiction, and that fact that I didn’t have a normal life was part of the problem. I don’t know how big a problem. [inaudible 01:17:27] — — It’s there. Was there.

Interviewer

You… with your addiction, a predator. You were a predator. You preyed on vulnerable women, broken women, who you thought were not strong, and could not — you told me that no one would believe me.

Joseph Bishop

I did?

Interviewer

Yes you did.

Joseph Bishop

I apologize for that.

Interviewer

I forgive you. But I think you were right.

Joseph Bishop

That’s big of you. I’m sorry.

Interviewer

You know, it’s not. Let me just say something, in all — everything is out there is very transparent [inaudible 01:18:05]. If I had not had the childhood I had, if I had not been a victim of sexual abuse as a child, what you did to me would have absolutely traumatized me. It did, but not in the way it should have, because I thought, well, this is just one more thing. One more t ime being raped. One more penis in my vagina. — — So. For me, that … that and the fact that you said no one will ever believe you, look at you, you said. Look at you, look at me. Look at you, look at me. And I went to my room, and I pretended I was sick. And I was laying there. I didn’t cry. I cried on my way out. But I didn’t cry. And I just thought, oh my god, I am nothing. I am no one. Nobody loves me. — — I am not lovable. You were on a pedestal, you were this amazing — ahhh. You singled me out. I felt so special. I thought I was special. I wasn’t. You were a predator. You groomed me. You preyed on me. And then you took advantage of me. And because you were so brazen with what you did, I knew I wasn’t the first one. — — And I knew I wouldn’t be the last one, but I never said a word. I went on my missions, supposed to to _ — — , pretended somebody in the fucking parking lot tried to rape me, because I was having an anxiety attack and I didn’t want to tell anybody. I didn’t tell anybody. I went home, I didn’t go home, I went to — — , stayed with some Mormon family. Sent me to see some therapist. — — I don’t even know who he was, but he was so fucking arrogant. All he talked about was himself. What he kept saying to me was, you have a secret, you have a secret. Damn right I have a secret, I am not telling you. I didn’t like him. If I’d liked him, I would have told him. — — I went back out to mission there, and I’ve never been the same since. Never been the same since. And I have- — — .

Joseph Bishop

Do you?

Interviewer

Yes I do. I have — — . And I’ll tell you, if you ever touch one of them I will kill you. You know I threatened to kill you, back in 2010? Nobody called you and said, oh by the way, this woman who accused you of raping her is threatening to kill you, so you should probably hide. No. Well I called Salt Lake, I finished — — in Utah, and I called Salt Lake. I said, you know — — — — · — — Doesn’t matter. Not important. I had my youngest daughter with me. She wasI — — at the time. I called Salt Lake and I said look, I need answers. It’s been ..__..,… a very long time. Here’s his name, here’s what he did. What happened.

Joseph Bishop

You know what they told me? You’re not entitled to know. I said, I’m not entitled to know? Is there a council? Was there a court, was he excommunicated, did [inaudible 01:21:11]? What? You’re not entitled to know.

Interviewer

I said, really. Well you know what, I have a gun. I do have a gun. I was trained in

Joseph Bishop

===========’, I have a gun. [inaudible 01:21:25] I will — I know where that bastard lives, I will go shoot that bastard myself. And [inaudible 01:21:31) until the cops show up.

Interviewer

And I said, I was on at the mission training center, and the mission president sexually assaulted me. It’s still on record. I just checked before I came here. Never got an answer. Last year I talked to my stake president, — — , you know. Can you just give me some closure, an answer, something. — — Why has the church never spoken out? There’s a recent article in the paper about some bishop in Provo who didn’t report something, and the church came out saying, we are transparent. We have a zero tolerance for this. I’m like yeah, right, bullshit.

Joseph Bishop

And your wife never knew about any of that stuff? — — No, she did. Not all of that stuff. But she knew about some of it. — — What did she know? — — I told her about the lady in Florida. — — Well that’s — — — And- And there’s some lady I can’t remember.

Interviewer

Because for you, it was rather benign. Nothing happened do you. — wanted a massage from you. What about the way you were behaving as a predator? You never told her about that?

Joseph Bishop

Well, yeah. When you talk about getting a back rub, and that sounds like I’m doing something.

Interviewer

But she asked for it. I didn’t ask for it.

Joseph Bishop

That’s true. She wanted a back rub.

Interviewer

And…- said what? Shame on you, Joseph Bishop? It’s okay honey? I understand because I don’t give you any? What? What did she say?

Joseph Bishop

No. She didn’t say any of those things. She… quietly went on her way. — — Oh. — — She didn’t love me. — — Well, my husband didn’t love me either. But that’s not an excuse to behave that way. — — No.

Interviewer

me. — — They might still.

Joseph Bishop

Well.. it’s up to you.

Interviewer

It is up to me. It’s a shame, all of the work you’ve done, in the church, all the wonderful things you’ve done for people.

Joseph Bishop

That’s a good question. I’ve always had in my mind: why. I heard this marvelous [inaudible 01:24:41] blessing. I have all these marvelous things happen to me. I am still around, I am still, I’m still [inaudible 01:24:53], the Lord is with me, and he knows my suffering. But I haven’t been.. I haven’t had the problem right now, I haven’t for several years, [inaudible 01:25:05] if there’s any problem, I can control it. I don’t have any desire to have any, anything towards… that. That I can tell you.

Interviewer

Good to know. [inaudible 01:25:22]

Joseph Bishop

Very good to know. — — It’s not —

Interviewer

I don’t consider you a pedophile because I was — — , — — was — — , it sounds like the women were women, and you have not approached children.

Joseph Bishop

No. No, that is important to me. That doesn’t excuse me. — — No. Hell no. There is no excuse. In a criminal sense, for you, would … no. — — I would be excommunicated and the church would… — — What? The church would be what? — — The church would be embarrassed.

Interviewer

They should be embarrassed. They should be ashamed. They should be ashamed, because there is not — there are other women out there, who have had the same experience with you. And there are other women out there who have had the same experience with other priest holders. You’re not the only one. You’re not. You’re not special that way, you’re not singled out that way. There are other men who have the same problem you have.____, — — , for example.

Joseph Bishop

Other priesthood leaders, I’m sure. The position for me is okay, I — — — You need closure. You don’t know what to do with this.

Interviewer

Yeah.

Joseph Bishop

I want you to have closure. I hope I don’t get excommunicated because of it. I can tell you that .. if I were to go to- today, my ugly —

Interviewer

To the wife again?

Joseph Bishop

I tell her, that would ruin our relationship, this isn’t a threat, or pleading. I need to be responsible for my actions.

Interviewer

I agree.

Joseph Bishop

But I don’t know what else to do. I’m so sorry. I cannot. You think I’m just saying this, I’m not. — — I have been single for 25 years. — — Because of this. — — Yes. I raised my children as a single mom. For 25 years. — — That’s hard.

Interviewer

It was very hard. It’s still hard. I don’t trust the priesthood. I believe in the [inaudible 01:28:08] men, I believe in the savior, I do not believe in the church. I do not believe —

Joseph Bishop

The gospel —

Interviewer

I believe in the gospel. I do. I believe in repentance. I believe in that whole process. I find it absolutely appalling that Elder Asay would not have sent someone to talk to you, or that she didn’t talk to you directly about the accusations I made. Which, had I gone to the police at the time, nobody in this entire [inaudible 01:28:42], guess what? He didn’t report that. I was told straight that I would lose somebody’s testimony. Here, guess what my mission president did.

Joseph Bishop

It’s true.

Interviewer

I’m not worried about that anymore. I am not worried about any of that anymore.

Joseph Bishop

Do you want retribution?

Interviewer

I do. I want compensation. I want somebody to say, oh my god, all these years we thought you were nuts, but you weren’t.

Joseph Bishop

You weren’t.

Interviewer

No I wasn’t.

Joseph Bishop

Well. Here I am, recording it.

Interviewer

Well okay. I hope you have a good criminal attorney. Cause you’re gonna need one.

Joseph Bishop

I’m sorry to hear that.

Interviewer

Well, I have no other choice.

Joseph Bishop

Well you do, but I understand.

Interviewer

What choice do I have? To be compassionate and get up and walk away? I do have that choice. But then what does it do for me? I’ve already forgiven you. I have closure. You admitted what you did. But there are so many other women who probably would benefit just as much who don’t have the guts I have. You know what? I have not had the courage, the moral courage to stand before you until now. — — I tried. I threatened your life. I wasn’t serious, but I did threaten your life. Although I wouldn’t have shot you. I wouldn’t shoot you now.

Joseph Bishop

Oh, you just did.

Interviewer

Whoa. The arrow of truth. The bullet was a silver bullet of truth. And that’s where we’re at. So [crosstalk 01:30:45].

Joseph Bishop

I need to… to… accept all that’s there. My concern, I don’t know if I can say this without you misunderstanding me —

Interviewer

Okay then don’t.

Joseph Bishop

My big concern is the pain that’s going to take place. With all of my family, who love me. I have five sons who would be devastated. Their wives will be devastated. My grandchildren will be devastated. My great-grandchildren.

Interviewer

The whole legacy.

Joseph Bishop

The whole legacy.

Interviewer

Your whole legacy is fucked.

Joseph Bishop

Because, see, I’m trying in my way, to do these things… to … help. I’m not saying it’s right, but I’m working with my grandchildren and I’m telling these stories, faithful Mormon stories, because I’m trying to say I’m not that guy anymore. I’m not. I know that. But. You don’t know that.

Interviewer

I don’t believe that. I think maybe you are not able at this point, to do what you did. And I think that after, at least what, 75 years? You have reached a point where you’re actually in more control than you were.

Joseph Bishop

That’s not accurate.

Interviewer

You’re not in more control than you were? It took this long to —

Joseph Bishop

It’s taken me a long time.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

was good for me, because she had a husband that was not faithful, too. And so she would say to me, you’re flirtatious. And I would say, I’m not flirtatious, it’s just my personality.

Interviewer

She, wait a minute. You know how many times you touched my hand in this meeting? Three t imes. Yeah. You know how many times you looked at my breasts? Three times.

Joseph Bishop

No —

Interviewer

Yes. You did. Yes. You are not paying very close attention to your —

Joseph Bishop

I don’t see that at all.

Interviewer

Well, that’s convenient. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.

Joseph Bishop

would say you’re flirtatious, I would say, I’m not. Then one day, I woke up, I don’t know what woke me up, but I guess it was — — because I developed a strong, strong love for her. I loved her dearly. And that makes me sad. Because that’s one that doesn’t disappear and also [inaudible 01:33:30]. But it didn’t — something happened to me. Something happened to me. A gift from God or what, but just like that, the desire was gone. — — I don’t think I looked at your breasts.

Interviewer

You did.

Joseph Bishop

I don’t — I don’t do that.

Interviewer

Once you looked at them at the point when were talking about you said that I had a boob job, or I had a breast augmentation, whatever it was at the end. You looked at me then. You looked at me two other times. Once before that, once after. It doesn’t matter. It’s a habit. You are flirtatious, you are [inaudible 01:34:10], it’s part of your charm. And that’s part of how you have —

Joseph Bishop

That’s exactly what I came to realize.

Interviewer

Yes.

Joseph Bishop

It was that realization and — — realization that put us back together again.

Interviewer

Your charm?

Joseph Bishop

The realization that I had used, willingly and unwillingly, my charm for the wrong reasons.

Interviewer

Well you’ve always been very handsome, you’re still very handsome. At 85 years old. But.

Joseph Bishop

That’s irrelevant.

Interviewer

No, it is relevant. Because an ugly man cannot do what you did.

Joseph Bishop

That’s only a line —

Interviewer

Oh, but it’s Harvey Weinstein on the other hand. Yeah. Well. Alright.

Joseph Bishop

Somewhere along the line in this, the worst … I had to say, recognize something that I didn’t recognize before. That was that I was flirtatious. And that which — — every kind of [inaudible 01:35:25]. So that realization and- — — loving me has brought me back to sanity. [inaudible 01:35:33] — — I now recognize addiction. I do. I remember the first time that this … I was in Argentina. [inaudible 01:35:49] and there was this girl next door, and she in the swing, swinging back and forth, and I was in the tree, at that age, and that just grew from there. Just grew.

Interviewer

Was that long ago? A six or 8 year old?

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know. It wasn’t normal. I have friends who are not this way.

Interviewer

Most people are not this way.

Joseph Bishop

I have a hard time understanding that.

Interviewer

That they’re not this way?

Joseph Bishop

Yeah because I thought I was normal.

Interviewer

Right. Right.

Joseph Bishop

I thought I was.

Interviewer

That makes sense. Yeah.

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 01:36:37]

Interviewer

So.

Joseph Bishop

Let’s go back to you for a minute.

Interviewer

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know how e lse to say it. I’m not saying this… casually. I paid. I’m so sorry. I am so so sorry. I’m not just saying that out of fear. I know what’s gonna happen, you know what’s gonna happen. But I am so sorry. Just terrible. Me. It wasn’t you. My only — just the fact the addiction that [inaudible 01:37:25] had and I have, I don’t think I have… I think I’m over it. Maybe not. I may be fine. All of my stuff is gone. I can’t … I haven’t… condition took away [inaudible 01:37:41) for the reasons.

Interviewer

Yep. And you can’t get an erection. Yep. Erectile dysfunction is the word.

Joseph Bishop

Whatever it is, I’ve been able to accept my lot in life. And that was … that’s taken away a lot of stuff, too. Because there’s no sense in fussing around. It’s just embarrassing. But let’s go back to you. I just want you to know, for yours, — — maybe you’re not going to, but I am very very sorry and I am so sorry. I don’t know if I can even be forgiven on your side.

Interviewer

I don’t care.

Joseph Bishop

I don’t.

Interviewer

I don’t either.

Joseph Bishop

I worry about it a ll the t ime.

Interviewer

You should worry about it.

Joseph Bishop

I do. I do. But what else can I do? I’ve done everything I possibly can —

Interviewer

Bullshit you have not.

Joseph Bishop

I knew you’d say that, but I can’t think of anything e lse I need to do —

Interviewer

You are — okay, let’s just clear the plate for a minute then. Could you not confess?

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 01:38:41]

Interviewer

Bullshit ! Hi, I’m took a sister missionary down to my specia l room that has a bed and a TV and VCR and tapes and I tried to rape her, I couldn’t get a full erection, so I couldn’t completely penetrate, but you know. Did you admit that?

Joseph Bishop

I don’t remember that.

Interviewer

Oh my god. — — Do you admit that?

Joseph Bishop

I don’t remember that.

Interviewer

Oh, my God. Alright, well, it doesn’t matter.

Joseph Bishop

I do not remember that. I don’t know, maybe it’s just because my mind doesn’t want me to remember that, but I don’t remember that. That’s not an excuse. That’s just a …

Interviewer

So, then that … Because you don’t remember that …

Joseph Bishop

I can’t say to anybody I did this.

Interviewer

So you wouldn’t have said … So, okay.

Joseph Bishop

I guess it’s tucked away. Maybe it’ll come out like it did with the sister missionaries for me in the right environment.

Interviewer

Maybe.

Joseph Bishop

I don’t remember that, and now I’m worrying about what else don’t I remember.

Interviewer

Well, I think that’s a pretty good thing to worry about because …

Joseph Bishop

Well, it’s a big thing for me. I worry about it all the time…

Interviewer

You should worry about it because you have very little time left here, and this is supposed to be the time that we repent, and we say we’re sorry, and we try to make amends, and we try to make up for, you know, whatever it is we did or whatever.

Joseph Bishop

Alright.

Interviewer

I went through years of therapy.

Joseph Bishop

I’m sorry.

Interviewer

Well, I guess we’re done here.

Joseph Bishop

This isn’t … this is a sham [inaudible 01:40:58]?

Interviewer

No, it isn’t. No.

Joseph Bishop

It changes everything for me. I’m trying to see how today … I’ve been trying to say the Gospel is true.

Interviewer

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joseph Bishop

I have some feelings about church also, but I’m frustrated. I had an experience that I’ll tell you about. It was with my son — — in Costa Rica last week. He is on his third … He just divorced his third wife. And we have some really good talks. He asked me about, “Do you believe the Book of Mormon is true?” And I said, because I know other people have tried to talk to me just glad I’m with the church approach. He said, “Do you believe the Book of Mormon is true?” And I said, “Well, what I know is the following.” Then I told him the stories about I know that your brother, — — when he was two years old, had gotten pneumonia and we didn’t know if he was going to live or die. And I went to the hospital that night after playing for a dance that we used to play for extra money, and prayed when I was alone with him because I thought he was dying. — — And I was told … Told is the wrong word. This feeling came over me that he was going to be okay. I know, — — that the Lord answers prayers. That I know. I know that President Kimball was a prophet because of … And I told him the story of how President Kimball had interviewed me and not said a word. I felt the questions. I felt the answers going out. We were there and he was holding me in his arms. Knowing like a veil came down around us and the people that were in the room were chatting and didn’t know what was happening. Then the following Saturday, he called me on the phone and said, “I just want you to know I’m praying for you and that I love you.” Then the following week I was called. It took me out of the situation I was presently to stand, and I had reorganized the knowledge because it needed to be reorganized. There was a lot of pain.

Interviewer

Okay, but I guess I am shocked that you had that amazing spiritual experience …

Joseph Bishop

That’s why it amazes me too.

Interviewer

And then …

Joseph Bishop

Why?

Interviewer

I don’t know, but a year later, because I was at the MTC in January of 1984, and you tried to rape me.

Joseph Bishop

That I do not remember.

Interviewer

We’ve covered that. Well, is there anyone else that you …

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

Oh. [inaudible 01:44:11]

Joseph Bishop

Tried to rape?

Interviewer

Yes.

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

I have a hard time believing that. I do. I’m sorry.

Joseph Bishop

Well, that’s okay.

Interviewer

Because I am not … I can be the first. I’m sure as hell not the last. So, alright.

Joseph Bishop

My point of this meeting with — — was, here’s my life, these spiritual experiences, and then I done this all through my life.

Interviewer

I have to say that you, in my opinion, are not entitled to those spiritual experiences.

Joseph Bishop

I agree.

Interviewer

So, what the hell?

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Interviewer

Well, I don’t know either, but you did answer my questions and I understand that you’re sorry.

Joseph Bishop

Well, I can’t feel the depth of your pain, but I hope you understand that I can feel some of it because I had this thing in my life that has just been …

Interviewer

I have this thing in my life.

Joseph Bishop

Even after this spiritual experience.

Interviewer

Oh, I’ve had several. Even after you.

Joseph Bishop

No, I’m saying I’ve had these experiences and then something happens, and then I claw my way out, up and up, and up. And now I’m fine and feeling fine and I can’t forget. It’s always plagued me. But then I’m having another experience. This thing with — — was just another one of those experiences. I went to … I said, let’s go to church. So I went to church. I liked the little branches out of the word because they’re so pure in the sense of … There’s no … Just a nice one. — — While I was there, I saw in my mind’s eye, the Gospel. It was a primary string in the new program, so it had these big brown-eyed children with curly hair saying to the teacher what, and then they repeated, and then they’d sing their songs. It was a distinct … Like a little world all its own. I saw everybody happy. I saw everybody progressing. I saw Bishop, the Branch President, and these two counselors, and they were different. Everybody was at different levels, but everybody was happy and progressing, and I said to myself, “That’s the Gospel. That’s what happens to the people that read the Gospel”. — — That experience was another one of my highs. I took — — aside and said, “This is what just happened to me. I see this thing”. And I come back and I say, “Why?” I asked myself the same questions you’re asking. All the time. Why? Because I have a lot of problems.

Interviewer

I’m sure you do. — — 1111

Joseph Bishop

I do. And in this process, I have a lot of the other. I found a lot of women, but a lot of bad thoughts. Masturbation, took me a long time to get over that. I don’t even know if you accept that or not. I don’t know.

Interviewer

I think there are a lot of women, and I think there are a lot of bad things, and if you have forgotten, at least, that small part …

Joseph Bishop

I did, which makes me wonder what else I might have forgotten?

Interviewer

So it doesn’t surprise you that you may have done that?

Joseph Bishop

Oh, no.

Interviewer

I don’t know what to do with this. I don’t know. You know, I wanted to come here and talk to you and have you just say “I am so sorry”. And you did, and I appreciate that. But I have another level of responsibility, and that is what about all these other women? Not just yours. Not just the ones that you have perpetrated a crime. This is a crime. This is a felony. This is multiple felonies. Not just the ones that you have perpetrated crimes against, but other Priesthood leaders who stand up there and their narcissistic ego and do what you did. And these women have no voice. So I struggle with, do I want to be that voice? And what would keep me from being that voice? And is this enough? I thought this would be enough. I don’t know. I don’t know now. I don’t know that I can just go back to my little life. I don’t know.

Joseph Bishop

Well, I don’t know what I’d get. There’s nothing else I feel like I can get. You know, I do look at, oh please don’t do this to my children. Oh please, don’t do that. And then I think all the suffering I’ve caused you. If that’s the only way out for you, I understand that.

Interviewer

I appreciate that. Yeah, I don’t want to cause suffering for you, or — — or your children, and your grandchildren, or I’ll destroy all the good things that you’ve done in your life. But my children don’t have a father because I can’t trust the Priesthood. And I can not trust men. Therefore, I raised my daughters completely alone. So I don’t know what kind of damage that is. I can’t get my 25 years of being a single parent back. I can’t get my innocence from the MTC back. I can’t serve a mission and love the Lord and respect my Priesthood leaders, ever. Probably not in this lifetime.

Joseph Bishop

I see Priesthood leaders differently. I see 99% of them as good, God-fearing men.

Interviewer

Bullshit.

Joseph Bishop

And I see a lot of the others.

Interviewer

There’s a lot of the others. There are. I wouldn’t say 99%.

Joseph Bishop

Well, I don’t have the … You had a different …

Interviewer

I have a different … No, you and I have the same perspective. You lived this life of falsehood. You stood up there and smiled, and you were so excited that I was going to come in here and interview you because you are so fucking special. And you’ve destroyed lives to the point that we don’t recover. I have not, I am years old. I have never recovered from what you did to me. And you stand up there, and you go to work at BYU, and you’re a Mission President in Argentina, and then at the MTC. And then you take another fucking calling to go to South America to work for the welfare? Which they would not called you had they known you were a predator.

Joseph Bishop

But, true. But what was I to do? That was my … Okay, I want to do good. I want to pay for my sins, if you will. I want to do good for people. I want to help them. And in this way … Listen to me just a moment.

Interviewer

Okay, I want to hear what you have to say. I’m frustrated and I’m angry, but I do want to hear what you have to say, so forgive me for playing with my hair.

Joseph Bishop

See, let’s go back to the hypocrite thing. What does a hypocrite do when he wants to be better? The only thing he can do is try to be better.

Interviewer

No.

Joseph Bishop

Well, my position, my thinking 30 years is that I’ve got to overcome this.

Interviewer

So that you’re not exposed?

Joseph Bishop

No, no, no.

Interviewer

Yes.

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

A hypocrite continues the behavior more secretly. Tries to overcome it, and then does it again. Tries to overcome it, and then does it again.

Joseph Bishop

I’m telling you my interpretation, that’s how I was. No, that’s fine. Where I was, I had this addiction. Took me a long time to figure out that I had an addiction. But that came and I find out, okay, I’ve got this addiction. I went to my friend who’s a therapist, and we’re in and we’ve figured it out. Okay, I’ve got this addiction. Okay, I must overcome that. Okay, I’m not going to do that anymore, I’m not going to do this anymore. And I’m going to be this, this, this, and this. That led me to this other life. That’s what started to pull me out. — — But every time, almost every time, I’m not in that hole now, but every time, it was like I’m just doing all I can do to be better. I wasn’t feeling like that’s all I

Interviewer

Joseph Bishop

could do. That’s the only option I sought for myself is okay, I can not do this anymore, I’m not going to do this, and I’ll do this, this, this, and this. I will serve missions. I will do. I will go. I will, anything I can do, I stand the rest of my life. I’ve served five missions. Do you think that’s all altruistic?

Interviewer

Somewhat.

Joseph Bishop

You do?

Interviewer

I do.

Joseph Bishop

Well, I look at it now and say what I was trying to do was …

Interviewer

Make up for all the shit you did?

Joseph Bishop

Well, get out of the hole. Get in life. Get a way to …

Interviewer

Okay, but you go to the temple unworthy. You go to the temple, and even in the recommend, are you honest in all your dealings with your fellow man?

Joseph Bishop

Yes. Let me speak to that.

Interviewer

Oh, please.

Joseph Bishop

Over here, I’m not worthy. Didn’t go to the temple. Didn’t because I’m not worthy. When I start to feel worthy, then I do some more work and more work. Then, and I repented. I’ve done all the things that I can do. Now you would say to me, “You haven’t repented”. And I’d say, “I understand that”. I understand where you’re coming from. And I thought I had.

Interviewer

No you didn’t, because there’s a piece of you, Joe, inside you that says, “I’m not done”. That’s why you still carry it with you, because you have not completely repented. Your soul is not clean and purged, and it’s covered in crimson. That’s why you still carry this with you. That’s why if you were to die today, you die with all this with you, and it goes with you. The repentance process isn’t about, “Okay, I’m going to tell part of my story to a Priesthood leader because I can get away with telling this much, and repent, and everybody around me will know that I’m trying”. — — Well, the fact of the matter is you didn’t really tell everything that you told, everything that you did. You gave little bits and pieces, and you covered yourself in a shroud and you walked along. And each time that happened, you carried something heavier with you each time you went because you never told the whole story when you confessed. If you did do it, then excommunicate it. So did you repent? No. Not the way that the Lord tells us to repent. You didn’t say you were sorry. You didn’t even tell the whole story. And so there are women like me out there struggling, and you defecated all over us. And you just walked — — along and you continued serving in the church like we were nothing. We were nothing. We are nothing.

Joseph Bishop

I think you’re right.

Interviewer

I think I’m right too.

Joseph Bishop

I wish you weren’t. But I think you are. I didn’t think of it that way. I thought I was doing everything that I possibly could do to overcome this sexual addiction, and well …

Interviewer

I have worked in addiction long enough that I … I don’t work with sex addicts. I don’t. I don’t work with pedophiles, I don’t work with rapists. No, I never did. Substance abuse, drug addicts, I don’t really understand. The only addiction I’d ever had was Excedrin. But logically, I can understand why people would want to hide from their pain. But when we talk about repentance, we talk about making up for what we did and being sorrowful, and part of that process is we say we’re sorry. And that’s gone 33 years without an apology from you. I’ve done 33 years trying desperately to say okay, “Well, I love the Lord, and I’m confident he’s there for me”. And even lucky enough to protect me from my Mission President. So who am I? What am I? — — Then I get married, and my husband has 14 women in our four years. And then he tells me, and I’m like, “Uh, okay, well, maybe some of that’s my fault”. Maybe some of that has to do with my childhood. Maybe some of that has to do with my Mission President. Then we get divorced. Now he tells everybody there were only four women, and I’m like, “Really?” “Oh, and I didn’t have sex with them, it was only oral sex”. So did he get excommunicated? No, he lied his ass off. He covered it up, he smoothed it over, and made himself look good. And he blamed me. — — So, did he repent? Not to what I understand the Lord considers repentance. So, you do the same thing, but it’s the way that it is. You are not special this way. You are not singled out this way. If you are not transparent, if you do not really tell the whole story, you carry it with you. Once you tell the whole story, you can let it go because the Lord takes it away. You’ve never done that. That’s why it’s still with you. That’s why you walk around with this heavy burden. It’s a ball and chain, and it’s strangling you.

Joseph Bishop

Yes, it truly is.

Interviewer

Well, it’s a ball and chain for me too. And I have no repentance to do. I have no …

Joseph Bishop

Right. It’s not your fault.

Interviewer

No, it was not my fault. It absolutely was not, but I have suffered tremendously from it. I believe in the Gospel. I believe in the book of Mormon. I believe in the — — atonement. I do not believe in the Church. And I’ll be damned if I’m going to stand in front of some Priesthood leader who’s going to tell me I’m wrong or that I shouldn’t pursue anything. And that’s what I’ve been told this whole time. And I don’t know what I’m going to do. The statute of limitations has not run on this case.

Joseph Bishop

It’s not that. I want you healed. I want to be healed. That’s the bottom line for me. I want you to heal. I want me to be healed. I am not healed. Getting close to it. — — love is helping.

Interviewer

Okay, that is the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard.

Joseph Bishop

Why do you feel that?

Interviewer

Somebody’s love can be healing. I agree with that. But you’re going through this relationship and it’s false. You’re scared. You have this idea in the back of your head that if she knew what you did, if she knew what you …

Joseph Bishop

I know.

Interviewer

That she would want you. She wouldn’t love you.

Joseph Bishop

She wouldn’t.

Interviewer

Okay, well, then it’s a crock of shit.

Joseph Bishop

I don’t get what you mean. What I said was her love.

Interviewer

Her love can not heal you if you are not honest with her. She only loves the part of you that she doesn’t know-

Joseph Bishop

No, I’m just gazing.

Interviewer

Oh, she loves the part of you that she knows. The part she doesn’t know, would she love that?

Joseph Bishop

No.

Interviewer

So how can that be healing? How could that be so beautiful and harmonious?

Joseph Bishop

Well, that part, you’re right. She would go back into her shell too, right? Because there was a man, and now it’s happened again.

Interviewer

And you are the last person that she’d think would do that. Absolutely.

Joseph Bishop

She said for the first time, through a message to me today, she loves me and she trusts me. She never said trust before. So yeah, well that’s where I’m …

Interviewer

You don’t deserve that title. You don’t. You have not earned that. You have lived a lie your whole life. You’re 85 years old. You’re still living the same lie. Even if I were the only person ever, you’ve been living the same lie for 33 years. And you’re still living it. And it’s a pattern. You had a lot of patterns in your life, but this particular pattern is what has destroyed you. And it will destroy you, because if you’re not honest and transparent, you are not repenting, in my opinion, what do I know?

Joseph Bishop

Well, I think you know a lot.

Interviewer

I’ve lived a very … I’ve lived a lot of years with my short years.

Joseph Bishop

Well, you have.

Interviewer

Yes, I have.

Joseph Bishop

And I’m responsible for some of that, for which I am sorry.

Interviewer

A large part of that, and I appreciate you saying you’re sorry. And I understand, and I forgive that. I forgave it a while ago. I needed an apology. But from here forward, I struggle with where I go.

Joseph Bishop

Understandable.

Interviewer

And I, honestly, I struggle with do you deserve the legacy that you want to leave your children and grandchildren?

Joseph Bishop

I don’t. I don’t deserve it.

Interviewer

But … There’s a but claw and I hear it coming. But they don’t deserve to be destroyed because of what you did. Yeah. I understand that.

Joseph Bishop

That’s the bottom line for me. I don’t know what’s going to happen to me when I die, but it’s my last wish as a matter of fact.

Interviewer

You had to wait for me.

Joseph Bishop

Very well could be.

Interviewer

Because I made this decision to come the day I called you.

Joseph Bishop

Really?

Interviewer

Yes I did. I just got fed up. I am fed up. Not one stake president has responded to me. I made a threat against your life in 2010 and they still would not respond — — to me. I carried this around for 33 years, and I’m done. I’m done. And not only am I done, there a lot of women out there who are probably done as well. If my — — State — — President hadn’t been able to come back to me and say, “You know what, let me just tell you there was a council, and that’s all I can tell you”. I would have been really … But there wasn’t even a fucking council. Nobody ever came here and said, “Hey, this missionary that was a missionary” … Well, you were President of the MTC, up there on your pedestal, “has accused you of trying to rape her”. — — What do you say to that? Uh, not true. Or, yeah I did. No. Nobody even came to you. And that, to me, is a bigger problem. A much bigger problem. Because that means there a lot of women around the world, not just here, that are reporting Salt Lake sayi ng, hey, my Bishop, my stake president, my whomever, has done this or this, and it gets swept under the rug. Well, is that appropriate? I mean, this is the end of days. This is the last days. We are coming of the end of the world. I’ve been very close to Mayan civil times. But if I die today …

Joseph Bishop

You’d be fine.

Interviewer

I am fine. I have little sins. I have little of this, a little of that. I don’t have anything grievous. I don’t have anything we ighing me down. My life is completely open and transparent. If you like me, great. If you don’t, I don’t care. This is who I am. You either like it or you don’t. I’m okay with either way. I am very transparent. These are things that have happened to me. Although, I very rarely talk about you. And I rarely have talked about you to any degree because I’ve been worried about people’s testimonies. And now I think, you know what, that is complete bullshit. I was a coward. I didn’t have the guts to confront you, and I’m ashamed of that, which is part of the reason I’m here today. I was ashamed of that, and whatever has transpired over the last 33 years is partly my responsibility, because I allowed you to continue with your addiction. I didn’t understand it was an addiction then. I only came to that …

Joseph Bishop

Does that surprise you today to have figured that out?

Interviewer

Oh I figured it out when I started working in addiction.

Joseph Bishop

Took me a while.

Interviewer

Well, I had a lot of insight. A lot. But it’s not an excuse, Joe. It’s not an excuse for what you did. Is it more … Okay, let me say it this way. There is no excuse for what you did, but there is a reason. Does that make sense?

Joseph Bishop

Does to me.

Interviewer

And I don’t want to be forgiving of you. I don’t want to let you off the hook by saying, “Oh, you had a disease, or you have”. That’s what it is, a disease, but it went untreated to this day. You’re 85 years old. It’s untreated to this day. You’re self-medicating without medication. You’re self-treating.

Joseph Bishop

I’ve listened to you and I agreed with all you’ve said, except this thing about … I think I’ve overcome my addiction.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

I do.

Interviewer

I hope that. Nobody would know that except you.

Joseph Bishop

I feel for the first time in those 30-something, longer than that for me, that I have been successful, at last. I no longer have those feelings. I don’t have the stuff that sleeps with me bugging me all the time. I don’t. It’s gone. I don’t know how long. It’s been like alcoholics anonymous where they get up and say, “Hi, I’m” …

Interviewer

“I’m Bob. I’m an alcoholic”.

Joseph Bishop

Yes. I’m Joe. I’m a sexual predator. Now then, how long you’ve been clean from alcohol? X-number of years.

Interviewer

3 years, 22 days, and 6 hours.

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

I use it to sow, occasionally.

Joseph Bishop

That’s where I am with this. I am … It’s been three years, three hours, and whatever, and I feel, at last, at last I’m no longer plagued with those …

Interviewer

With those desires? Okay, but I …

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know if that’s true or not.

Interviewer

Well, it’s been true for how long?

Joseph Bishop

Long enough that it’s been a first.

Interviewer

Okay. Well, you know, there are a number of factors that would play in to that. One is your age, and the other is that you have worked on it your whole life. You could have been healed from it decades ago and lived the rest of your life free of that. But regardless, those are choices you made, maybe because you didn’t have the education, maybe it’s because you felt a change. Whatever reason doesn’t matter. You’ve reached a point in your life where you, first of all, you can’t, and you have no desire. Now when did that begin? Or that’s just …

Joseph Bishop

I had a desire …

Interviewer

Biology?

Joseph Bishop

For intimacy that’s holding somebody tight that I love and that’s …

Interviewer

That’s normal.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah.

Interviewer

That’s normal. Taking a missionary down into the basement, to the storage room, is not normal. Trying to rape a missionary is not normal.

Joseph Bishop

No. That, today, when you say these things, that’s important to me. That’s why I hope.

Interviewer

Well, then there you go. And indicator right there that that part of your life is over.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. It is important. I think of that night and what in the world what could ever possess me to do that? And I have to listen and say, yeah. But it’s important to me now.

Interviewer

So you’re basically saying that you’re not the same man that you were.

Joseph Bishop

I think that’s true.

Interviewer

I think that’s fair. I do, I think that’s fair to say. But we still have the whole …

Joseph Bishop

I understand.

Interviewer

Decades of who you were to deal with. So, I don’t know.

Joseph Bishop

I don’t think the atonement, you said you believe in atonement, I’d love to believe in atonement. I struggled to believe in the atonement. But I don’t know if I can be forgiven.

Interviewer

You can be forgiven. You absolutely can be forgiven. You have to be honest. You have to say you’re sorry. You have to make amends. You have to try to make up for what you did. You’re 85 years old. What happened with me, because I can’t talk about anybody else because I wasn’t there, but what happened with me was 33 years ago, and I had struggled for 33 years- — — … years ago, and I have struggled for 33 years. How do you make amends for that? What is there? What compensation? What? What? I mean, I have been through therapy. I’ve been through counseling. I absolutely resent the priesthood and priesthood holders, absolutely resent them.

Joseph Bishop

All of them.

Interviewer

Wow.

Joseph Bishop

That’s where we differ.

Interviewer

Here’s the problem, though. You, nor my husband, who is also a priesthood holders, but he wasn’t someone with authority. You were. You were the most … A civilian term would be not high-ranking official, but you were the most high-ranking priesthood holder-

Joseph Bishop

That’s right.

Interviewer

… that I ever came across.

Joseph Bishop

And that makes my sins more grievous.

Interviewer

More grievous, yes, yes, but it also means that the damage was so much worse. However, what are the things that we can’t be forgiven on?

Joseph Bishop

When we don’t … When we go against the holy ghost [inaudible 02:13:20].

Interviewer

Yes. What else?

Joseph Bishop

I think that’s it.

Interviewer

I think that’s it, too. We can even be forgiven for murder.

Joseph Bishop

My life is so checkered.

Interviewer

Your life is very checkered, but your life is coming to an end. Luckily, you’re in your twilight years.

Joseph Bishop

It is.

Interviewer

But I’m gonna live this way: Single for the rest of my life.

Joseph Bishop

Why?

Interviewer

Because I don’t trust men now. I don’t trust, absolutely don’t trust priesthood holders, and I have a -year-old daughter, and I am not about to put her in a situation to have someone like you do anything to hurt her. That’s a logical choice that I have made.

Joseph Bishop

I think the only error in that thinking is that all men are that way.

Interviewer

It doesn’t matter. The men I’ve come in contact with are. So I am like a freak magnet. So I refuse to let anyone near me.

Joseph Bishop

I see.

Interviewer

I am damaged. — — •

Joseph Bishop

Am I damaged, too?

Interviewer

Yes, but I’m okay with the fact that I am damaged. I’m very honest about the fact that I am damaged, and I’ve come a way healing, but I have absolutely no desire, no desire to even pretend … oops, excuse me … to trust again ever anyone. Nope, and I’m okay with that. Is the Lord okay with that? I don’t know, but this is my lot in life, and I’m okay with my lot in life. I’m not okay that you’re the part of the reason that I’m here, but I do appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and your honesty.

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 02:15:04], please accept my apology.

Interviewer

I do accept your apology. I don’t know if it’s enough, but I do accept your apology, and I do believe your apology comes from your heart, and it’s genuine.

Joseph Bishop

That’s one thing I have learned.

Interviewer

What?

Joseph Bishop

I can’t be false to you. I can’t try to play you using I don’t know what that means but … because the Lord is involved. How I respond to you to today must be sincere, must be honest because I’m going to be judged, not by yous. You’ll judge me, too. I’ll judge myself, but the Lord. One day I’m gonna have to answer, and I wanna be able to say, “Yes. She came to me broken. It was my fault. I am so sorry.” I am. It makes me wanna cry. I don’t wanna cry.

Interviewer

Crying is healthy. Feel free. Crying is good.

Joseph Bishop

That’s why. 85 and sick, I would be blessed if I have three more years. So I’m different. I’m on the edge now. I know I’m dying. I get the news every time I go to the doctor. “Well, we’ll try this. We’ll try that.” Fine. I’ll live as long as the Lord wants me to live because it says so in my blessing. I’ve learned from my blessing that these things can happen. Each one of these miracles that have come to me and have to me at the peak. Not that I asked for it, not that I … It’s just like it was organized. Okay? I want you to do this. The MTC, I have a dual thing with the MTC, big dual thing. One side with you. The other side reorganizing the MTC. — — I mean, that was … I almost died. I do not understand to this day why I was inspired, but I do know that I was inspired. I do know the things we did there helped a lot, and that sounds self-serving. But a lot I don’t understand is why the Lord was so good to me when I was so bad to him, and you.

Interviewer

Let me …

Joseph Bishop

I don’t understand that.

Interviewer

Let me ask you just kinda throw it out there. Is it possible that maybe the Lord really wanted you to change your life, and you didn’t, and therefore, where you are it could be good, but where you are could have been great?

Joseph Bishop

I could have been great. I know that. I was one time Bob Wells told me that … and it was about the same time this other was going on.

Interviewer

Which other?

Joseph Bishop

When you and …

Interviewer

Oh, and-

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. When he had put my name in the hat to become a Seventy, I was never called. I know why. I know why. Because Carlos Asay may not have done what he should have done with you, but he did what he should have done with me.

Interviewer

Meaning?

Joseph Bishop

I was not ever entit led to be considered to be a general authority.

Interviewer

You should not have ever been considered to be an MPC president.

Joseph Bishop

I told them. Yeah, I agree.

Interviewer

Or a mission president.

Joseph Bishop

I agree. That’s my confusion.

Interviewer

I’m confused. But, you know what? My husband gave amazing Sunday school lessons. Amazing. People were cheerful. The spirit was really strong, and I didn’t realize that the spirit could work through unworthy vessels until then. Now, I look back and I think, “Oh my gosh. He was awful. He had sex with women that he was baptizing.” So, and yet his Sunday school lessons were amazing, and the spirit was strong.

Joseph Bishop

I can’t do that.

Interviewer

What?

Joseph Bishop

Can give him … I don’t teach anymore, at least I try not to ever get that calling.

Interviewer

You’re in the presidency.

Joseph Bishop

Well, the Bishop called me the other day. He said, “[inaudible 02:19:54] or over here in the Sunday school second counselor.” I don’t want to … I wanna do — — what’s right from here on out. That’s all I wanna do. I don’t know if you understand that or not. That’s my way of trying to-

Interviewer

You’re avoiding situations that could get you into trouble.

Joseph Bishop

Well, yes.

Interviewer

And isn’t that the same thing that we’re taught that we should avoid … Even in the church, avoid the appearance of evil. Avoid just the appearance. If you avoid a situation that could look bad, you’re absolutely going to avoid a situation that could turn to be bad. So yeah, no, I totally get that. I mean, I completely understand that. But that’s like saying, “Okay, I’m an alcoholic, and normally on my ride home, I pass a liquor store if I go down [inaudible 02:21:09] Street every day, so therefore”-

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 02:21:10].

Interviewer

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 02:21:13].

Interviewer

It’s not necessarily a bad thing to do when we’re weak in that whatever area that is. For an alcoholic, it would be absolutely just avoid it, those triggers, those things that cause you to have that-

Joseph Bishop

That’s very true for me. That’s where it started with all females. I don’t-

Interviewer

Yeah.

Joseph Bishop

I was concerned today when you said, “Come to my hotel.” I’m not gonna put myself … Then you said, do you remember? Glass enclosed conference room.

Interviewer

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joseph Bishop

Okay. I can do that, but I’m trying to be wise. I’m not trying to beg or I’m just trying to do what’s right because it’s not you. It’s the Lord that’s gonna judge me, and it’s not gonna be very far in the future. That’s what I’m dealing with.

Interviewer

I understand that, and that was part of my reason for expediting my visit.

Joseph Bishop

Thank you. Maybe I’m still in the hand of the Lord that you did come, and my life has been spared, but it shouldn’t have been. This last [inaudible 02:22:36] 90% shut down on that [inaudible 02:22:43] so that I could at respond to you and understand better, and beg forgiveness for my sins with you, which I do, and you know it ’cause I’ve said it.

Interviewer

Yeah.

Joseph Bishop

I’m so sorry. Sorry for me, too. I [inaudible 02:23:07] pain, not like you. Mine has been like a roller coaster most sincerely stated, struggling to climb up here and falling.

Interviewer

I can’t even climb-

Joseph Bishop

No, no, no, no, no. Climbing.

Interviewer

No, I can’t. I’m not kidding. I was up here, then I went down here, and this is where I’m at, but that’s okay.

Joseph Bishop

I don’t want you down there.

Interviewer

I am down there. There is no other way to be. So … Well, I appreciate your time.

Joseph Bishop

So, anymore of this stuff?

Interviewer

Not today. I’m not sure that I feel-

Joseph Bishop

No, I’m talking about today.

Interviewer

Oh.

Joseph Bishop

Anytime.

Interviewer

Possibly.

Joseph Bishop

’Cause I don’t want my name out there as a model unless it’s safe, unless it’s helpful. Remember, I started with you saying I don’t want anybody to think of me. I want if they say anything about these things, I don’t wanna be subservient. That’s where we started. I don’t want my name out there as [inaudible 02:24:36] publication that says my name anywhere for obvious reasons I don’t feel worthy. I shouldn’t feel worthy. I’m not worthy [inaudible 02:24:49]. I’ve got pages that you could write about the good things [inaudible 02:24:56]. So then you wonder that I don’t want my name out there?

Interviewer

I think you’re afraid people are gonna find out the other side of you. It doesn’t mean this guy doesn’t exist, but there is this other side.

Joseph Bishop

Yup. I am.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

For me and for those who love me. I know what it would do to — — She’s fragile. I know exactly what would happen to her. My kids, I know exactly what would happen to them. I don’t want that. I’d rather die first.

Interviewer

Well, if you die first-

Joseph Bishop

Then I’m in trouble.

Interviewer

Well, yeah, you would be in trouble, but it’s more than that. Just because you die, doesn’t mean it’s not gonna be exposed when you’re … There’s not confidentiality non-disclosure.

Joseph Bishop

So let’s go back to repentance. Let’s go back to this thing. The Lord will … I just keep trying to do what’s right now hoping that the atonement, that’s there’s something in the atonement for me. It’s a hope. It’s not a belief.

Interviewer

People have gone a long way on hope. It doesn’t have to be a belief yet. Hope is good. Hope is really good. I don’t wanna take back hope from you.

Joseph Bishop

You wouldn’t be able to take it from me. I haven’t … Well, it would be a reckoning, maybe an appropriate reckoning. I don’t know.

Interviewer

I don’t know either.

Joseph Bishop

See, I’m looking at the next world. What’s going to happen when I get on the other side? Well, I’m going to be judged. Am I going to be sent over here or over here? I don’t know because I have a checkered past. I’ve tried. This you must understand. I have tried to do what’s right, and each time, it’s like, I really have. And I keep having these experiences, which gives me some hope that okay, I’m okay, and then I don’t know. I don’t know.

Interviewer

But is it not a pricking of your conscience every time you think of these other things? Is it not the Lord saying, “Hey, you have to take care of this”?

Joseph Bishop

When — — divorced me, I said I was gonna pick up the pieces of my life, and I started dating, and there was this one woman I dated, and she just loved me to pieces, but it wasn’t reciprocated. I didn’t feel the same about her. She would have done anything for me, and it was there when I started to say, “I’m not worthy of her love, her trust. I’m not.” And that was bad. That ended sadly because I had to break it off because I didn’t love her, and it wouldn’t be fair. I thought I shouldn’t get married again. If — — weren’t so darn loving. I needed to go to the hospital. I couldn’t drive back. I had to have somebody drive me back. It was supposed to be an easy in-and-out procedure. It wasn’t. — — was there all the same waiting on me, helping me, loving me, caring for me, and I feeling, “I’m not worthy of this woman.” But, I do love her. I do love her. It’s a love … I love her deeper than I ever loved — — and I were not … In the MTC, there was a group that came by, and they had been doing these inventories of matching people up, and they wanted to extend that into the MTC so we would get companionships that worked. Of course, my position was, we can’t do that ’cause they then were not training

Interviewer

- -

Joseph Bishop

them out in the field, they’re gonna get companions that don’t work. They need to experience that. But he wanted to do something with- — — and me as a husband and wife team. So I said, “Fine, let’s do that. I wanna do experience but” … Went through this thing. About a week later, they came back with kind of tail between their legs saying, “You two should never have gotten married.”

Interviewer

Wow. Was that a punch in the gut?

Joseph Bishop

It was.

Interviewer

They were right.

Joseph Bishop

Of course.

Interviewer

That’s why it was a punch in the gut.

Joseph Bishop

Yes.

Interviewer

I’m sorry you lived your life that way. I am. That’s sad.

Joseph Bishop

I appreciate you saying that. Only one who’s been there more than I can understand that. [inaudible 02:30:34] I had … When I … When I got to my mission… I never thought of this before, but I probably [inaudible 02:30:44] things in a way that was reasonable to understand, whereas I didn’t … Here’s the worst of the worst of the worst [inaudible 02:30:58]. Should have done that.

Interviewer

There’s a lot of shame in that.

Joseph Bishop

Oh, I now understand. Thank you very much for your talk today ’cause I’m listening, and I’m hearing and seeing me, and it’s painful. It really is, but you’re right. I need to do those things that I thought [inaudible 02:31:27]. When I confessed to Elder Wells in the mission field, do you know why that happened?

Interviewer

Uh-uh (negative).

Joseph Bishop

We had been doing so well, the baptisms. We went from 70 a month to double that, to double that, to double that.

Interviewer

This is when you worked missionary [inaudible 02:31:44].

Joseph Bishop

Mission President.

Interviewer

Mission President, okay.

Joseph Bishop

We went from 70 to over 400 baptisms a month.

Interviewer

Wow.

Joseph Bishop

And in the middle of this, I had a sister missionary who was besieged with evil spirits. I’ve never experienced them before. Didn’t know they existed, but they do.

Interviewer

I know that.

Joseph Bishop

They attacked me. So in this process trying to save my soul, I said, “Okay, well, I need to tell you everything.” And I went back as far back as memory could … I think I talked about you.

Interviewer

You couldn’t have ’cause you were MTC president after Argentina.

Joseph Bishop

I think I…

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

All I can say is I tried to talk about anything that I’ve ever done, and you said to me, “Haven’t you said this some of the answers? The answer’s yes. To this patient one thing. To this patient another thing. To this patient another thing. Now, I’ve got a general authority [inaudible 02:32:54) I wasn’t trying to hide anything at that particular-

Interviewer

No, that was a scary time for you.

Joseph Bishop

It was.

Interviewer

Yeah.

Joseph Bishop

Because I could not … You know, the way I was at was interesting. We were invited over to the dedication with [inaudible 02:33:12). All the mission presidents in South America went to Sao Paolo. Their [inaudible 02:33:23) was there. He was leading the entourage. We arrived, and I was at the end of the entourage. Pretty soon, the head met with the tail ’cause we were as you said, “How are you doing?” And I said to myself I said, “I’ll never get a better change in this world. I’ve had blessings from Elder Wells, from the favorite stake president. Nothing was working. Nothing. So I said, “I am just struggling with evil spirits that attack me and are with me,” and he said, “Cast them out,” and he raises his hand, “Cast them out.” And he’s done that-

Interviewer

At ime or two.

Joseph Bishop

No, no, no, no, that’s easy for you to day.

Interviewer

Were they gone?

Joseph Bishop

No. I went back that night. Well, maybe it was two nights. Whenever it was, I went back, and I even tried to bless myself. I wanted … It was terrible. I wanted — — to … I wanted … And I said to the Lord in my prayer, I prayed, and I said, “Look.” Look is not the right word.

Interviewer

I know what you mean, though. Yes.

Joseph Bishop

“I would like to be relieved from these evil spirits that are with me.” And then I said without thinking, “But if not, but if not, I’m fine.” That day, just like that, it was gone.

Interviewer

Wow.

Joseph Bishop

Are you starting to understand that?

Interviewer

Yes. But I do understand this and this and this and this. I’ve had some amazing experiences. When I was in,____…, we had a Temple President, _ , who lives in Phoenix. He and I were, we found these abandoned babies, and we were trying desperately to get them a [inaudible 02:35:32] home. And one day in particular I was struggling with [inaudible 02:35:35], and I remember I was pacing in my room, and I had just come back from _ — — , and I was pacing, and my husband said, “What’s the matter?” I was like, “I cannot get in touch with th is doctor to sign the adoption form, and I can’t get ahold of President- — — He’s working with the mission president down in_______, and I’m frustrated.” — — And he just ignored me. Well, that’s what he was doing, and I was going back and forth, and I’m like, “‘I’m gonna call him again.” And I heard this voice clear as day, clear as bell, “Wait.11 — — And then Later, I found out the baby was not adoptable. He has cerebral palsy, but still, yeah. I’ve had some really amazing experiences. But I’m still who I am. You’re still who you are. I’m not perfect. I’m not anything. I’m nothing special. I’m just me. But, yes, there’s-

Joseph Bishop

Well, it’s a special experience.

Interviewer

It was a special experience, for a very ordinary person.

Joseph Bishop

Given from God above?

Interviewer

Yes.

Joseph Bishop

To you.

Interviewer

Yes.

Joseph Bishop

So you’re special enough that he spoke to you?

Interviewer

Yes.

Joseph Bishop

Okay.

Interviewer

Yes. Good point.

Joseph Bishop

That’s where I find myself.

Interviewer

But you have so much to do before you go. You have a lot to do for the next couple of years. I need to get back to my room. I’ve gotta call my daughter. I’ll be in touch.

Joseph Bishop

You’ve got my phone card.

Interviewer

Yes. Okay, I’ve got your number, and you’ve got mine now.

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 02:37:07].

Interviewer

Well, yeah, because I called you, and you called me back.

Joseph Bishop

Okay.

Interviewer

So, I will give this some thought and figure out what I need to do, what’s appropriate, and what is in everyone’s best interest and move from there. And if you come up with anything, you call me.

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 02:37:30].

Interviewer

What?

Joseph Bishop

We’ve been pretty clear today about this thing true repentance. I thought I’d been doing it. I don’t think so now. I think I need to do some … I think I need to go to my bishop and lay it out.

Interviewer

Go to- — — maybe?

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 02:37:51]?

Interviewer

Your stake president?

Joseph Bishop

Oh, he is our stake president.

Interviewer

Yes, he is.

Joseph Bishop

I had to smile. My son- — — had a spiritual experience, and he’s all about certain parts of the gospel. So much though he’s the first counselor [inaudible 02:38:20].

Interviewer

And he’s [inaudible 02:38:20]-

Joseph Bishop

[inaudible 02:38:21], and we’re in the same ward.

Interviewer

Oh. I see.

Joseph Bishop

And President — — told them to stop and desist talking about the gospel. I don’t remember what it was but it’s so … I know President — — from that when he talked to my son about you’re spending too much time with born again, which is a … So I do know him. He’s just that way.

Interviewer

I don’t know him. I’ve never spoken to him.

Joseph Bishop

He’s a …

Interviewer

I have his number. I have your bishop’s number. I have not reached out to anyone. I reached out to you, and I reached out to my attorney, and that’s all I’ve done. Well that’s not all I’ve done. I’ve contacted the police in [inaudible 02:39:26] who said that the statute of limitations has not run, and if I wanted to pursue a criminal investigation, I could, and my attorneys said if I wanted to continue with a private suit, I could. So I have done some background. But yeah, I didn’t come here ignorant. I did some checking before I came.

Joseph Bishop

I came ignorant.

Interviewer

No, you really didn’t. You came naïve, not ignorant.

Joseph Bishop

Well ignorant about the … yeah.

Interviewer

Well, if I had said, “Hi. Do you remember me?” You wouldn’t have come.

Joseph Bishop

Oh, I would.

Interviewer

I doubt. Well, then I was wrong to deceive you, but only part of this is a deceit.

Joseph Bishop

Don’t worry about that. We’re talking about salvations here.

Interviewer

Yeah, we are.

Joseph Bishop

Let’s not get confused.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

You’ve got to be … if I were … I need to help you get healed. I need to get healed. I see that as the task. I don’t know how yet, but I’m gonna be thinking, too.

Interviewer

Well, hold off on saying anything to — — and we’ll … My flight leaves in the morning. I will give it some great consideration.

Joseph Bishop

Give it some prayer, too. I believe in prayer.

Interviewer

I believe in prayer. I do.

Joseph Bishop

I don’t know what’s best either.

Interviewer

Well, yeah, there’s a lot at stake. There’s …

Joseph Bishop

That’s the thing that’s so overwhelming for me.

Interviewer

Yeah.

Joseph Bishop

This is gonna destroy my life, but it can destroy some other lives, too.

Interviewer

You have a whole list of … Yeah, I understand that. I put four dollars-

Joseph Bishop

It goes back to my missionary. It goes back to, you know …

Interviewer

Yeah. All right. We’ll talk. How’s that? Talk to you Monday afternoon or tomorrow afternoon. I don’t know. I have an appointment with my attorney Monday morning, so.

Joseph Bishop

Be careful of attorneys. Now this is gonna sound self-serving, but they want money, so he’ll want to pursue this.

Interviewer

Okay.

Joseph Bishop

Get your answer from the Lord.

Interviewer

Okay. You walk, yeah, it’s a good point. Yeah, because it’s a criminal defense lawyer. For you it’d be very expensive. A personal injury lawyer would be very expensive.

Joseph Bishop

Yeah. You wouldn’t get anything ’cause I don’t have anything. I lost my savings when the bubble burst. I had all my savings from the missionary [inaudible 02:42:33]. They put him in jail later, but I lost everything. If — — and I, if we were to get married, then we could pull our resources and have a good life in terms of being able to visit her family, my family.

Interviewer

Right. I understand.

Joseph Bishop

I bought a house. It was 920 square feet [inaudible 02:43:01] cost $100,000. I got 5%.

Interviewer

Yeah, it’s not about that. It’s … I know what [inaudible 02:43:11] wants. I know what the [inaudible 02:43:14].

Joseph Bishop

Just be careful with that. I would only say again, get your answer from the Lord. I will try to do the same. I don’t know what to do, but I’m gonna try to find out.

Interviewer

You’ll know what to do. You’ll [inaudible 02:43:28].

Joseph Bishop

I got a feeling right now, and it’s huge. There you go.

Interviewer

Oh, my gosh. Two and a half hours. All right. Let me … I’m sorry.

Joseph Bishop

I need to go to the bathroom.

Interviewer

Oh, I’m sure there’s one right out there. Let me call — — Let’s see here.